Tone line lines on 3302

[lithomaniac]

I'm getting a of pair horizontal tone lines on this press.
Rollers are brand new and set to a tee.

Aqua varnish seems to help to help but I find myself having to wash blankets every
couple of hundred sheets. It's a pain in the ***.

Any ideas or suggestions?

 

[ziggy33]

Plates running a tad dry! What are you using for plates and what are you using for your fountain solution?

 

[lithomaniac]

Metal plates, Kodak, laser imaged, self developing, .016 thou.

Anchor Emerald one step, 6 oz per gallon. I could go to a two
step with alcohol sub if needed. Where our shop is, using real
alcohol is a big no no.

Press has Kompacs on it. IMHO the worst dampening system ever designed.
I've run everything from molletons to miehlematics and Kompacs don't hold
a candle to any of them.

 

[printerdan]

I've had good experience with Kompac's. (I've run conventional, Diamond, Kompac & Crestline)
Lift a form roller handle (to "night latch") and run for a while. (Quite practical on a line copy job.)
Does it remove one of the toning bands?

 

[Ryobi Press Parts]

Leave the forms all down, (when setting the form to oscillator be sure to come into your adjustment from a clockwise direction, in other words you may have to start by turning the screw counterclockwise to make the stripe very heavy and then come back to a thinner stripe, if you go to far then you need to start over, this is very important when trying to get the stripes exact.)
Set the ink form to oscillator pressure first, form 1 & 2 set to 3mm only, set the third form to oscillator to 2mm.
Then set the form to plate pressures, form 1 & 2 set to 3.5mm only, set the third form to plate to 2.5mm.
A couple of things here are you have to set the form to oscillator first because this will affect the form to plate stripe if set it second. then we want the form to plate slightly wider because we want the plate to drive the form not the oscillator. Third most of the time this affect comes from the third form roller which is what printerdan was talking about so if you only put enough pressure to transfer ink and cleanup when done this should fix this problem.
If this does not fix the problem please feel free to give me a call. Paul 517-881-7114, Technician for RyobiPressParts.com
We are adding many new items to the website so come and check out some new deals!

 

[FFR428]

9 times out of 10 those tone lines are from end play in the ink form rollers. You'll see tone lines on the blanket which transfers to the sheets. Take up the end play and it should correct it. IMO Kompacs are a no brainer water units. So simple to run it's just silly! What issues are you haivng with them?

 

[lithomaniac]

Now that's a new angle. Thanks for the suggestion, I'll check that Mon. AM when I go back in.
As far as the other stuff goes, (striping rollers, locking off forms, etc.) That's old school stuff.
Been doing that a long time on a lot of different presses.

As far as Kompacs go, Don't get me wrong. In theory, I like the concept.
My major issue is leakage, they drip from the end seals all the time in spite
of new seals (run in according to instructions). They also have a tendency
to either overfill the nip or run dry on me when I'm not looking.

Maybe I just need to get them set right.

 

[lithomaniac]

You are just a wealth of information about Kompacs.

Sorry about the slow get back, but Mon. was hectic.
Had a rush job in the AM and a press check by committee in the PM.

Anyway I checked end play this morning, and didn't really find anything out of line.
At the max, I only had one form that was more than .005 sloppy. Is that too much?

For some reason I no longer have your reply regarding the various evolutions of the Kompac
dampening system. From what I recall from your post, I have the second incarnation with
the oscillator riding on the hard meter roller and the gravity fed fill system. I did get the suits to
spring for new bottles and caps, (pricy if you ask me). Helped a little on the over flow problem.
Haven't yet replaced the lower valve boxes, (even more pricy). I am aware that the end seals are
a consumable item and keep a close eye on them. I pull them out every Friday, clean them and wipe
down the roller ends. They all seem to wear square and even, so I don't think there's any problem
with the brackets.

I know there was something else you mentioned. Can't remember it right now.
Dang old timers disease. I'm sure it'll come to me about three in the morning.

Anyway, If I may pick your brain,

1) Do you ink up the dampening system first or just let it ink up as you run?
2) When I do washups, I hit the ink train with Varn, ( I use step I & II),engage the
blade and drop the forms. Should I put Varn into the dampening train or just let the
plate action pull it clean?
3) I'm having trouble with ink piling between the hard meter roller and the main frame
(the one with the logo and serial # on it). any adjustment for that?

Thanks, Dave

 

[FFR428]

Hi Dave.

I went to edit and add some things and deleted my reply by accident. Not sure where I went astray but.....sorry about that!

Once the seals are burned in I leave them alone. I find they leak less when you don't mess with them. I think it was ths rubber plungers that can swell maybe? For some strange reason the rubber they are made of will swell in time and the plunger becomes distorted and can distrupt water flow. I always kept another set of bottle caps and both plunger valve assys. When they sit and dry out the swelling goes away and they can be used for a while until they swell again. I've had this problem with both metal plate solution (various types) and the pink mega solution we all know and love. If it's something else I missed just ask and I'll try to help if I can. To answer your Q's....best I can

1. No I don't pre ink the Kompac. I let it ink up as it runs jobs. This helps reduce ink buildup during the day.

2. When I wash up I didn't engage the forms. I use Varn VWM wash and warm water. I wash the Kompac unit first. I remove the old solution with the snot suckers and cotton pads (press not running!). I then put a little wash in the nip and add some water. Let the press run a min or 2. Then use cotton pads to absorb the wash. Repeat 2-3 times until clean. The reason I do this first as it allows all the presswash to dry and evaporate so the unit is clean and dry by the time the ink rollers are finished. To wash the ink rollers I just engage the wash up blades and wash with VWM and water. I don't drop forms to the plate. In fact I take the old plates off before washup. If your doing a color wash (like blue to yellow) I tap the ink color I'm using on the Kompac roller and press rollers. Run it in a few mins and repeat washup. Remember nothing touches the Kompacs when they are running. No rags, cotton pads or whatever. The inward nip will just grab it and spit it out somewhere inside the press. Fingers included! I watched a pressman get his finger caught in one. It pulled the skin and nail from his index finger clean off from the 2nd knuckle down to the tip. Yikes.... Sorry it's gross but true story!

3. The ink should not pile from the meter to the frame crossbar that bad. I mean in time it can buildup (weeks-months) and you just take a piece of plastic (like a old credit card) and scrape the dry ink buildup off the bars. Excesive nip gap setting can cause this. The normal nip setting is 1.5 to 2.0. and should be even on both sides. But again this can depend on how old/good the rollers are in the units. The last Kompac I ran the rollers were 7 years old and still going.

If your only running 1 unit I always put plain water in the bottle/unit not being used. Never run them dry it kills the seals and rollers. Also (you might know this) but if something does go into the Kompac (paper, rag, cotton pad etc...) stop the press. Drop the handle like your going to engage the water unit to the plate. This will let the geared form roller clutch disengage and you can inch reverse the machine and rollers spin outwards. This will also spill any water in the unit with it but lets you remove whatever. Like worst case you have a sheet of paper wrap into the unit etc...... So if you need to back anything out first remove the water bottle and any solution.

If I missed anything let me know. I'm far from a expert but have run these things since the 80's. And had my share of headaches and rebuilds. Overall they are pretty simple to run and fix.

 

[FFR428]

Oh BTW something I used to do which helped reduce ink, balance,mold and fungus issues was to run distilled water in the solution. I also added a couple ounces of mega plate etch (for poly plates only) to the solution mix. With such a small amount of water it can contaminate easily. Distilled water gave me a consistant balance everyday if I was having issues with the water (city-town-well) for some reason. I only had to do this at 1 shop I worked at. The tap water was real $#itty. The plate etch helped keep screens and reverse type open on long runs with mega poly plates. Try a few things and you'll find a good combination that works for you.

 

[lithomaniac]

Well , once again that's more positive info about Kompacs than I ever knew and I thank you for it. The broker/repairman who brought this press in advised me to pre ink the kompac unit. Said it would mitigate leakage at the seals.


I'll give your W/U routine a try but it seems a little time consuming, I normally do anywhere from 8 to 12 wash ups a day.
A lot of short run stuff, you know? As to color washes, I use a product from Anchor that is excellent. I can go from PMS 871
to something that's 95% tint base in one color wash.

About moving parts. I Hear ya, after 40 years plus running presses I still have two thumbs and eight fingers. Probably a miracle
considering all the old school big iron I've been on. I've had a couple of scares, they make you real careful for a long time.

Item 3.
It shoudn't but it does. Is there no way to get more clearance between the meter and the frame bar? I'll check the nip. The soft meters are new, the hard
meters are old but have no nicks or scores. I could live with weeks or months. Daily is a problem. when the chunks break off and go into the dampening system, they create major issues. I'm doing like you said except I should be using the bosses' new AMEX card instead of an old one.


As far as running one unit I'm with you. I never run the unused unit dry. Depending on the length of the run I either use roller lube or the "snotsucker"
to keep the dampening unit from running dry. I'm also well aware of the fact that if you jog in reverse with the water forms down water goes everywhere.
Apparently the previous operator wasn't. Both plate cylinders need some work, lots of rust and corrosion on anything not plated.

Just got your last BTW while composing this, I don't use poly plates, metal only. Kodak laser imaged. dedicated RO water supply. H2O quality is not an issue.

Dave

 

[FFR428]

I do the same amounts washup wise. It was just the routine I did so do what works for you best and is easy. Do check the water nip setting. It may help the tone lines. You'll see the chrome dial on the end of the unit. You'll see a scale with numbers on it. Open the nip by 1 notch on the scale and see if it helps. Back it off if it washes out. Your seeing a "pair" of tone lines. The unit has 3 forms so something isn't set right. Also if your adding aqua varnish the ink is on the thin side. What brand are you using? With such a fine metered film of water flaws show easily. I use Spinks ink most of the time. But again use what works best for you! Double check the blanket,plate thickness is to spec. I used the 2 pc Ryobi blankets, expensive but gave me the best impression. Easy to change for envelopes with the quick change setup. I could do 2 blankets on/off in 3 min.

40 years you've been at it longer than me. Only 38 years here. Same as you everything from large to small offset, DI and digital.

Oh no way to increase that bar to roller clearance sorry! It's tight there no doubt!

 

[discountprintingservice]

The ink ductor timing can cause banding to show up also (but rare), also excessive plate to blanket or blanket to impression pressures or incorrect plate or blanket thickness or packing can also cause these issues. Rollers that contact the plate with to heavy of a strip can drop into the cylinder gap and then bounce out of the plate cylinder gap as it hits the leading edge of the cylinder and produce a bouncing effect down the plate showing visible shock lines that run the width of the plate and each one can be different in width, usually the widest most noticeable one is within about the diameter of a form roller down the plate from the lead edge (usually seen on the blanket). Bad roller bearings can also cause similar problems. Cylinders can bounce too (unless the press has bearers) with excessive pressures just like rollers. T-heads are notorious for this especially with worn turnbuckles.