Genius OXI (?) vs. Genius UV

[Jarle]

We are looking to buy a second hand KBA Genius non UV (2005 model). My local KBA representative tells me that since this version is no longer in production, getting spare parts, may be a problem and has adviced me not to buy this. The seller tells me the only difference between the non-UV and the UV version is the corona and the drying unit and spare parts form the UV-version will fit right in the non-UV 2005 version.

We are not planning to print plastics - only paper. The UV-version is an extra 100.000 euros, and if we can use the non-UV then i dont see the point?

Any info on the difference between the two versions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance, Jarle.

 

[Meny]

Why Why Why ???

Why on earth buy used KBA that has service & part problems ?

It is noit that the regular version has no parts . it is hard to get parts for all of them , including the UV machines.
The cost is high and it is way out of industry standard...so Why ????

Buy a GTO / SM52 or even a Komori L-20 and you will sell it in the future for the same price you buy it now , parts are very easy on the market , so is service and you do not put a healthy head in a sick bed.....

A UV system for a press this size is under 100000 Euro new , so to pay 100000 for a used dryer.... sounds like someone is pulling your leg...

If you want a good press for a good price - contact me - will try help you in directing you to good sellers of good presses

meny
menybor@yahoo.com

 

[Jarle]

hello and thanks for the feedback. we are looking at the genius since it is supposedly (?) very easily operated. we are a small printshop only running indigo. we are sending too many jobs out of house to other printers when the customer requires lager runs than what is financially sound on the indigo and want to keep more of these "bigger jobs" on own machinery. the genius seems like (from reading up on it on the internet) as a good offset press, but i may be mistken - judging from you reply : ) what we need is something that gives us the quick start up/job change and easy operation (as none of us are "trained" offset printers).

as i understand it is easier (for inexperienced operators) to maintain correct colors with the waterless system?
can one run waterless inks in a speedmaster (or similar machines)?

as for the price: the seller of the non UV genius is asking 120.000 euros (including creo lotem 400) - second hand genius uv machines are priced at 250 - 300.000 euros...

jarle

 

[Meny]

Now i understand your needs better

I understand that you have some jobs for the offset press , but not a full shift / day.
I understad you have no knowledge on operating an offset press but would like to gain that knowledge.

I would say - keep away from dry offset & the KBA and go for a simple press that will be easy to operate and learn and cheaper to own.

If you buy a conventional 4 color 52 cm offset press of reasonable age and a used CTP , you will be able to print 2 X 1000 sheet (or similar) jobs an hour.
Is this amount good for your needs ?
A simple press will be cheaper to own as parts are common , service is common , and all in all you learn it once and that's it.

The G-52 KBA did not sellk that good ever , and for a reason.
unlike Indigo , you can alter the result on press as you go (without altering the file as you have the data on your plates) this is a change to your workflow , but as dry offset is less then 3% of the world market (it gives good & sharp results) you may find it hard on he support side , and little poeple can help you , so you must be a PRO , not take it by the way.
If you go for a conventional ofset press you can get help & answers as well as support 24/7 at ease.

If you contact me by mail i will try and put a package for you including all you need and print instruction to get you going the right way asap

Meny
Image & More ltd
over 20 years at service to the printing industry
With Knowledge , Advice , Support & Solutions
Menybor@yahoo.com Tel : +44-79-24232341

 

[Jarle]

thank you for your reply and yes, we might consider a traditional press. still, i will need a little more convincing before i invest in a traditional press. this due to the inexperience of my staff to operate such machinery (and the high wages in my country that eliminates the option of hiring a new person for this specific press). the theory of operation is one thing, the experience a totally different thing. waterless offset is, as i understand, a far easier thing to manage/master (sort of like a car with automatic gearbox). what is your experience with dry offset? and (pardon if this seems like a dum question), but is it possible to run waterless on a traditional press?

jarle

 

[Meny]

I would not like to go deap in to reasons & numbers over this web site , but dry offset is easy to run when you know how !
you do not know how to run a press at all . and in the future you will find it hard to get service , support , materials and parts , so i think it is the wrong path to choose. it is much safer to go on the main road and not look for adventures that cost a lot of money.

A conventional press with fast make ready and computer managed ,can be learned by a normal person who can run an Indigo system in one week - 10 days. if he can not grab the basic knowledge in that time , he may not be capable of running an Indigo system.
Will he know all that is to learn in 10 days ? NO WAY , buy he will be able to start getting work out of the press and improve along time.


Dry offset is controlled by cooling you do not have on regular presses , and it is not logical to change.
regular offser serves the industry arround the world for so long..... why swim against the river flow... ?

Talk to me
meny
+44-79-24232341

 

[Jarle]

ok thanks. i will get back to you if we decide on a conventional press (or any press at all).

 

[mc8305]

Hei Jarle

Seeing that you are a digital shop I fully understand why you are looking at the KBA Genius, nice machine, but a special "one of a kind construction" and I doubt that KBA in Scandinavia has a lot of experience and knowledge to service the machine.

A conventional press with a CTP would be the traditional way to go, but IMO not the right way to go. Please consider that both the CTP and the processor also need to be maintained and it would be a pretty steep learning curve to master this classic setup.

A DI press would be the perfect match for your company.
A DI press is a fully automated waterless offset press with integrated plate imaging on press.
From PDF to the first printed sheet in 10 minutes everything automated no need to adjust register, water ink/balance etc. Very easy press to master, highest print quality with waterless offset and up to 300 lpi.

Critics of DI presses would say that the plate material is too expensive. The price for a SRA3 makeready is about 280 NKR (50 USD) I think it's a fair price considering all the benifits.

I would go for a second generation DI presses. KBA Karat 46, Ryobi 3404, Presstek 34DI they are all the same press manufactured by Ryobi

Used presses at reasonable prices, parts and expertise in out part of the world.

See a DI press in action here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9tp1QUwMl4
You are able to read more about the benefits of waterless offset here: http://www.waterless.org/

Whatever you choose, please go and see some other print shops that have the equipment you are considering.

Best regards
Morten

Ps. Du er velkommen til at kontakte mig på: info@digi-press.dk
eller kigge på http://www.digi-press.dk

 

[Jarle]

hello and thank you for your reply. i have considered a di-press but a few forums on the web have put me off the idea. it is stated by some that these machines after some time run into register trouble (mispasning av farge) and when that happens it is difficult/impossible to readjust (since the plates are on press). any experience you might have concerning this would be greatly appreciated.

also i do not want to consider a portrait mahine - are the rollers not too small to give a good result when printing large covering areas (for example whole sheet black)?

 

[mc8305]

Both the problems you mention is true with the Quickmaster 46-DI, buth not on the newer 2. generation DI.
The quickmaster has only got 3 form rollers. 2. generation has got 4 form rollers.
The quikmaster has a tendency to jump in register when there is a lot of coverage on the sheet. This is not the case with the newer DI presses.

 

[Jarle]

ok - good to know. di is definately an option if what you say is true. as far as i know presstek is the only supplier now?
but back to the genius and my initial question - do you know if there is any other difference between the UV- version and the non-UV version, other than the corona and the drying unit? i would definately be more comfortable with offline plate making and the genius seems like a perfect machine for this. (there is only one other genius machine in norway that i know of, so yes the service is not experienced but i still like the idea...)

 

[Meny]

I do agree that a DI press is a very nice solution fro who ever wants to print rather short runs and do that with little knowledge.

The question is how easy it is to sell your work on a competative market and still make money.

On a conventional press you use one CTP head to do the work and if that one is down you can get plates from outside.
On the DI you have 2-4 CTP heads on the press , more potential to break down and stpo your press.

Cost of CTP parts & cost of plate are high - needs to be part of your calculation.

4 regular CTP plates will cost you about 10-12 $ top's
50 $ for a set on the DI pres is somethong that must be part of your callculation.

With todays fast plate changers & make ready , the advantage that was the base for the DI presses is long gone.

The learning curve is not that ig.
A normal person will be printing jobs after one week and learning more & more on the job
50 years ago you needed to be very smart and have long years as a learning curve....not any more.
Today printing is much easier and fast to learn.

I would go for a fast setting conventional press and gain the quality , cost of onership andtechnical stabillity

Meny

 

[Jarle]

i agree with you on the downside of being dependant of the onpress developing of the DI, and what happens when the lasers fail... as i have just spoken to an experienced printer who will be willing to run and teach us a conventional press on a short term contract it is more likely that we go this way.

 

[mc8305]

Jarle, sorry I don’t know the Genius all that well to answer your original question.

IMO if you want to go with a traditional press, you need at least a SM52-4 with all the automation you can get or equivalent Ryobi/Komori press, this will put you back at least 100.000 eur. And more likely 120-150.000 eur. then you need a CTP and a processor if the CTP requires that, this will further put you back 10-30.000 eur.

So between 110 – 180.000 euro for a conventional setup. Then you have to consider the additional floor space you need for these devices and the time you actually use on making the plates.

A used DI press with all automation etc. will cost you between 30 – 80.000 eur.
The myth about the DI presses lasers being unstable, was true with the Heidelberg Quickmaster DI and with the pre. 2004 Ryobi/KBA/Presstek presses. But post 2004 machines I have yet to see a laser fail. The laserheads for the newer generation presses is constructed to be in a press environment and actually rather simple. I would be more concerned buying a used stand-alone CTP. The build quality of the press is like any other Ryobi press and the printing quality cannot be beated by any conventional press with a dampening system.
Plates for the DI’s is made by Presstek (also sold under Kodak name) and by VIM technologies in Israel.

I am not a DI evangelist we also use traditional presses in our business and I don’t want to open a can of worms here, but my clear advice to you would be to buy a DI press use it for a couple of years and see if the offset business is for you or maybe it’s better to farm out your jobs?

The world is changing fast!

 

[Meny]

A different angle to look from

if a conventional press costs 300000 new and after 10 years it costs 100000 as used , and a DI press costs 300000 new and after 5 years it costs 50000 as used , is this not a sign given by the market ????

The world market has a better view & opinion then my own , it is 00000' of users who test & try in real life , and if the owner of a DI press is willing to loose so much money on it in a short time...it is a clear statment!!!

The biggest press makers have stopped making them.....why ?
Did they stop after all they invested in R&D just as it is too good ? or as the concept has changed and no logic in this kind of setup ?

This was a very good odea when it took 20 minuts to change 4 plates and 20 minuts to get to the right color ballance.
But today you can change plates and start running under 5 minuts...so who needs a 10 minut rip that holds the press back and costs more to keep alive while the value of the pres dropps like hell.

For 135000 Euro you can get a very good conventional for 36X52 cm pres with Autoplate and a very good CTP .

You will still be cleanning inks from the press...but hey , DI preses need cleanning too...

Good luck what ever you do , and if you want help with finding the right equipment - feel free to contact
Meny
Menybor@yahoo.com

 

[Jarle]

you have both given me something to think about : ) whatever we decide i will be sure to cantact both of you for a quote on machine. still i want to get some more feedback about the genius machine and will post a new thread.

 

[rapida guy]

Maybe I can shed some light on this KBA bashing thread. LOL
I worked for KBA North America for 12 years as Product Manager and District Sales. I have sold three Genius 52 UV machines and in the right application, they are a great machine. 10 minute changeover with only 10 sheets of waste is hard to beat with any other machine. They are unique and service may be a consideration but I think I can make your decision easier. It has been proven that due to a design "flaw" the Genius machine DOES NOT run thinner stocks under say 80# paper well. So unless you are running plastic or other expensive material, it is not your machine.
DI machines are not as popular as they once were due to the upkeep issues with the imaging head. Remember, if the press is down, you can't make plates and if the plate making system is down, you can't run the press.
It is likely that a simple conventional offset machine would be a better choice and if required, it would be a wise investment to hire an experienced litho pressman.
Either a small Heidelberg or Komori would be my recommendation. Whatever you do, DO NOT buy a 74 Karat! WAY TOO MUCH upkeep.

 

[Jarle]

thank you rapida guy. very insightful. i do agree that conventional offset is the most sensible option but i am not in a position to hire more people. wages and workers rights in my country are a backbreaker for any employer : ) i can deal with some downtime, and i am basically looking for a press that will handle a few shorter runs every day to back up my existing indigo-based print shop. di speaks in its favor due to cost of investment (second hand equipment) - easyness of opertaion.

 

[Meny]

from my 25 years in this business

once you have an offset press , you will get more jobs for it , you will do some of the work you do today on your digital press on the OLD STILE offser press , and you will make more money on them.

yes . it takes ualified operator to run
yes , you need to cover plates
and yes , it is not as clean as digital

but
you have no partners for every CLICK you print , you get better uality and more flexabillity , and you are faster too.

I have customer's who have both , and any job above 100 copy they run on the offset...

DI prices ?
yes , very tempting , BUT WHY ?
Why are the prices so low ?

THINK !!!
One man's **** is anothers gold mine ?????

Think !!