First Demo for 80ppm Konica - What questions do you ask?

Discussion in 'Konica Minolta Color Laser Printers & Copiers' started by life_in_a_duplex, Oct 21, 2019.

  1. life_in_a_duplex

    life_in_a_duplex Member

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    Looking into acquiring either a C3070, C3080, C6085, or C6100 and have a demo.

    1. What questions would you normally ask?

    2. How many pages would you ask to print during a demo? Saw another post where the guy was having problems on copy number 5000 (11x17s) but that's like $500 of paper for just a demo.

    3. Is IQ-501 really that important if the printer already prints test spots onto the ITM? That would take care of density checks, while registration shouldn't really be shifting around ever right?

    4. If getting just a paper feeder, print engine and a staple finisher, should I get a relay/buffer unit necessary? Something to help decurl the paper I suppose. Worth the money? I assume relay units are the least expensive item possible

    5. Is a TCRU program (trained customer replaceable unit) worth it? They'll train me to replace some of my own parts for convenience purposes, but they will also charge me for the training

    6. I don't do anything fancy with my print documents. Just print the pdf and that's it - no pantone matching or impositions. Konica Minolta controller is good enough right, or do I need a efi fiery?

    I appreciate your time!
    Thank you
     
  2. jwheeler

    jwheeler Member

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    Hi @life_in_a_duplex , I used to work for KM, but I now run an in-plant print shop within a school and teach students printing and desktop publishing. So I feel I can answer in an unbiased way. I just wanted you to know ahead of time why I know so much about the questions you're asking:

    1A. I would ask about service response time. Most machines these days from the big 4 manufacturers (Xerox, Canon, Ricoh and Konica Minolta) are all good units and have excellent quality and the same finishing, and even the same Fiery Front ends. The most important thing is how quickly service responds. I know in my area they respond same day, and try to average being on site in 4 hours. If you are really far away from the KM office, it might be next day response for you.

    1B. If you have any unique applications...could be a special type of media, a file that usually gives you trouble, etc, make sure to test it during the demo.

    2. I used to be the guy doing the demo's for KM, and this was all over the board. Some customers brought in a few color-critical jobs, or unique stock jobs and they would run 250-500 of each. Others would just ask for 5-10 prints. If you do alot of booklets at your business, run a few dozen to see how consistent they come out for you, and try it on their different types of booklet makers. They have the budget version (SD-510) which sits inside of the staple finisher, and they have much more robust units like the SD-506 and SD-513. The SD-510 really is a budget unit and shouldn't be relied on for heavy booklet making. To directly answer your point about 5,000...that is a bit excessive for a demo in my opinion, but that's entirely up to you.

    3. I have mixed feelings about the IQ-501. If I were a smaller print shop, I wouldn't get it. The C-1060/70 and C1085/C1100 series didn't have it, and thousands of prints shops ran just fine without it. Besides controlling color, the unit also monitors sheet-to-sheet and front-to-back registration and adjusts on the fly. It also registers the color and alignment of a new sheet quickly. However, without it, the process doesn't take that long to calibrate manually with a spectrophotometer, and get the positioning in alignment manually is quick and easy as well, especially if you have the document scanner. When KM introduced the C1070 series, they installed a new 'swing-roller' which moves the sheets to the same position every time. This made the positioning alignment very consistent and reliable. So short answer, on a budget, don't bother with it.

    4. The RU is not the least expensive item by far, but it is quite helpful to reduce the curling. I always recommended it whenever possible. Aside from page curl, it also helps to quickly cool down the media, and it offers an additional output tray. Plus, and this is the big bonus, it has an array of densitometers built in to check the color on your actual paper every so many sheets (you define how often such as every 100 sheets, every 500 sheets, etc.). This is helpful if you're not getting the IQ. You do get anti-static regardless of buying the relay unit. In regards to the paper deck, I would highly recommend the vacuum feed drawers if you can afford it. You wont ever have to worry about rollers wearing out.

    5. I always hated the way KM structured this. You mean, we're going to make the customers do more of the repairs to the machines, and we're going to charge them for it!?! I'd pass on it, and just treat your tech nicely (maybe bribe him with pizza!) and ask for a spare fuser, and spare corona wires to keep on hand.

    6. If no impositions, then the KM controller is just fine. It offers all of the same color control features, and it's actually easier to reprint documents because it interfaces with the machine screen seamlessly. The Fiery is a must if you do alot of unique impositions.

    Additional notes:
    In regards to the models you mentioned, the C3070/C3080 are the same unit, just different speeds (70 and 80ppm respectively). The C6085/C6100 are the higher volume series, just in 85 or 100ppm. The 3070/80 can do up to 350gsm duplexed, and the C6085/C6100 can do up to 400gsm duplexed. One advantage to the C3070/80 series is you get 2 extra drawers which are under the print engine. The C6085/100 series only have the vacuum drawers so you get 3 standard. Outside of what I mentioned, they both offer the same finishing features, they both can print on long banner sheets, they both can print on envelopes (but it's much more trouble on the C6085/C6100 series to setup envelopes). I'd only go for the C6085/100 series if you are consistently doing over 75,000 impressions per month. Otherwise, the C3070/80 can handle a good load for a much lower investment cost.
     
  3. life_in_a_duplex

    life_in_a_duplex Member

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    Thanks jwheeler, you hit all the points I was looking for. Yes, going for the vacuum drawers for sure.

    Yeah I would say I'm a smaller shop (10,000 12x18's / month) so 3070/3080 will be the way to go. Any idea how much a relay unit costs monthly? Seems worth it after seeing laser007's issue fixed by the densitometers.
     
  4. jwheeler

    jwheeler Member

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    @life_in_a_duplex , I wouldn't feel right posting pricing on a forum like this and the pricing very well could have changed since I worked there. It could also be different in your area depending on if you are working with direct or a dealer. If you're concerned about it, just ask your sales rep to break it out and show the price as an option. It really is a worthwhile option, I wouldn't get a machine without it unless I just simply couldn't fit it or afford it. If it were a matter of budget, I'd opt for the C3070 in order to get the RU instead of getting the C3080 for only 10ppm more in speed. Heads up that if you are getting certain advanced finishers, the RU is actually required. It's not required for a basic finisher like the FS-532 or FS-612.

    And the C3070/80 are just fine for 10,000/mo.
     
  5. life_in_a_duplex

    life_in_a_duplex Member

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    Oh good point, perhaps I should have asked for a proportion. For me, the relay would multiply the monthly lease for printer/vacuum tray/simple finisher by 1.3x and that seemed a bit high.
     
  6. jwheeler

    jwheeler Member

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    One way to offset the cost so you can include the RU is to get the FS-531 instead of the FS-532 (or the FS-612 if you need a booklet maker). The 531 staples 50 sheets instead of 100. Be aware that it will not feed 13x19 out of the stacker, only the top static catch tray. If you don't even need stapling, they now offer the OT-510 which has the elevating stacking, but no stapling.
     
  7. life_in_a_duplex

    life_in_a_duplex Member

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    That's a great idea on the OT-510.

    I also read your writeup on web-to-print solutions and looks like a great way to increase the usage of the machine. Looking to increase my monthly volumes (I currently just run business cards for local businesses) so web-to-print combined with some google ads could be a great combination.
     
  8. jwheeler

    jwheeler Member

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    Google adds are definitely a big help. It's also important to get on the top of the natural search results as some people don't trust clicking on adds. To do this, you need to do lots of SEO to your site. You also need to ask your clients to leave reviews on sites like Google maps reviews and Yelp. You also need to setup your business profile on as many free sites as possible like Yellow Pages, Manta, Insider Pages, etc.
     
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  9. Reckless

    Reckless Member

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    @jwheeler Hi, I'm looking at a C6100 for printing 18pt card stock (400 gsm). Can you pm me PPC pricing? The unit I purchased has KMBS ID number on it. It looks brand new, never used. Toners/etc not installed. My local KMBS branch is very difficult to work with. Not sure what the process is to switch ID numbers so I am billed. I have a PB-503 unit I want to attach to it and need to order PF-707M, any chance it will work with a PF-706? They look the same.
     
  10. jwheeler

    jwheeler Member

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    I'm not clear what you’re asking pricing on. You said you already purchase a machine...? As I said to the other poster, I don’t want to share pricing. And I’m not sure what you mean by switching ID numbers to be billed. If you bought the machine from an alternative source other than an authorized KM dealer, they generally don’t want to take on the risk of putting the unit on service. If that local service manager is willing to, then the process is they will charge a fee to come do an assessment, charge for any necessary parts and repairs to bring up to factory specs, then put you on some sort of click charge.

    The PB-503 will work with a C6085, but you do need to get an RU-518 to connect it. The PF-706 only works on the older black/white machines like the 1052 and 1250, not the color machine. They look the same on the outside, but if you open the panel to see the paper bridge feeding into the machine, it’s at a different height. You need the PF-707m or Pf-711.
     
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  11. Reckless

    Reckless Member

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    @jwheeler Sorry, I misunderstood about sharing PPC pricing. I have a C6000 with PB-503 currently hooked up to it for last 4-5 years. I think I am the last person in the midwest using a PB-503. It's the coolest finisher in my opinion. I have to double check whether I have PF-706 or PF-703 but I imagine I need to get the PF-707m either way to work with the C6100. I imagine I wont need the RU-511 if I have the perfect binder Relay Unit from my C6000? I am very curious as to how different it is going to be between C6000 and C6100 software/print wise. We would get a number of paper jams with my C6000 but we attributed it to the PB-503.

    I thought that if the copier has a KMBS ID number than it means it is under a service contract and if it is they will port it over without a fee?
     
  12. jwheeler

    jwheeler Member

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    The PB-503 is still a current model. I have one on my new gear in my print shop now...use it nearly every day. It is a solid unit. I sold it to lots of school districts here in so cal too. It was a popular replacement for Xerox’s tape binders.

    The relay unit on your current c6000 will not work on the c6085. They are specific to the engine, not the finisher. The Pf-703 was also for the 1052/1250. You most likely have a PF-602 as that was the only paper deck available on the c6000. If you have a staple finisher/stacker, that will not work on the c6100 either.

    As for software differences, if you have a Fiery, the interface is nearly identical for any machine with a Fiery. If you have a KM Controller, the PS driver and job centro have come a long way. In regards to print quality, I always thought the c6000 produced a great image, and the C6100 only got better, faster, and more consistent for both color and registration. Another thing you’ll really like on the newer engines is the anti-static rollers which are a standard part of the engine. I have a C6085 in my shop and it’s been great running synthetics (even duplex) which were always a hassle on our c8000.
     
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  13. Reckless

    Reckless Member

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    Thanks. I was contemplating using the KM controller in place of the fiery. Our colors don't need to be exact but I do like them to be as vibrant as possible. We never monkeyed with any of the settings. Is the KM controller standard on the C6100? Or do I need to order that as well?

    Whats the difference between RU-518 and RU-511? Thanks for explaining to me about old RU unit.

    Have you tried pushing your C6085 beyond 400 gsm? A long time ago minolta's were known to be able to be pushed beyond their rated capacities. I am soo jealous of the C14000 units with 450 gsm capability. I don't really need the speed. This is going to replace my OKI C911.
     
  14. jwheeler

    jwheeler Member

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    You would have to order the KM controller. The RU-511 would work as well. The RU-518 is the same unit, other than it has an exit tray out the top to support the long sheets (over 19” long) that won’t go through some of the finishers.

    We do not have a need for anything over 16pt which is 320gsm I believe. When I used to sell the gear, we ran a knight coated digital sheet from Kelly Paper which was ~400gsm without issue. But no, haven’t tried anything over 400gsm. You’d really want the RU-518 for that so you don’t have to push the sheet through the rest of the finishers. I’m sure you can go over 400 for small runs, but you’ll most likely start experiencing issues if you do it consistently, as with any machine.
     
  15. Reckless

    Reckless Member

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    I am confused which controller to order? There are two fiery's to pick from. At the moment I am trying to be as cheap as possible.
     
  16. jwheeler

    jwheeler Member

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    There are actually 4 controllers available on any of the KM Color engines...2 different Fierys, a Creo, and a KM controller. The lowest cost option on the C6100 is the KM controller which is called the IC-604

    This configurator link might help you. It's so you can see all of the options on the machine and build it: https://www.mykonicaminolta.com/configurator/accurio_c6100_C6085_simulator/C6100/step2.html
     
  17. Reckless

    Reckless Member

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    I am aware of the 4 controllers just not which one to buy. Not being focused on the copier world everything looks the same on paper. We are using this machine to print packaging but I must be semi color blind as I can't see differences in colors that much. We prefer something easier to use and does not give headaches. My last 4 machines had fiery's but we never monkeyed with ANY of the features/options. It was way too confusing.

    Let me know if you know a cheap place to buy IC-604 if you recommend it for my application.
     
  18. jwheeler

    jwheeler Member

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    I'd have no idea where to tell you to buy them. I used to sell for KM direct. You can check the KM website for authorized dealers in your area. You may be able to find one on sites like ebay, no idea, but I'd imagine you'd have better luck finding a Fiery on a site like ebay since they are more common. Just be aware that you will also need a VI-509 to connect a Fiery if you go that route.
     
  19. Reckless

    Reckless Member

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    Will I be able to run 400 gsm thick book covers or will that be limited by PB-503?

    Is it ever advisable NOT to get a PPC contract? I am debating about keeping my C6000 + PB503 dedicated for books (under PPC contract currently) and using the new C6100 + SD506 (Booklet finisher I have lying around) dedicated for printing 13x19" 400 GSM sheets Duplex. I would imagine after 10 years Konica fixed most issues with the printer? How often does your go down?

    Can you run a C6100 without a RU/finisher? I have a BizHub C652 that we run without finisher. I imagine we will be printing 100-200 400 gsm sheets at a time duplex. I checked the configurator and it doesn't seem to allow anything without the RU unit.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2020

  20. jwheeler

    jwheeler Member

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    I really think you should consult with your local KM sales office with all of the questions/concerns you have, but I will answer this round:

    No, the PB-503 cannot support 400gsm covers

    No, you cannot have a C6100 without the RU, and at least one finisher is required. The Sd-506 will work, for just an output tray, but it will not make booklets with 400gsm paper.

    You need to be aware that the C6100 requires 220v/30amp. Your C6000 power supply is only a 20amp.

    Yes, you should definitely get a PPC (pay per click) service plan simply because it includes all toner, labor and parts. If the local dealer is reluctant to put it on a service plan, it probably because your volume is so low. You might negotiate offering a flat rate to go along with the clicks.

    The print engine is only about half a foot or so wider than your C6000, but the required RU is about 1.5 feet wide, and the paper deck is about half a foot longer than your C6000 paper deck. (I did not look up exact measurements, just going by memory....you easily look up the specs on the brochure online to verify).
     
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