DocuColour 6075 II - How to get best colour matching?

Discussion in 'Xerox Color Laser Printers & Color Copiers' started by Shannon, May 12, 2011.

  1. Shannon

    Shannon Member

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    I need help calibrating my machine to get the best colour matching…
    Currently I am using Fiery RIP w/ DocuColour 6075. I tried to calibrate it this morning at it made no difference what so ever….
    Unfortunately we can’t afford a Densitometer here so I am calibrating off the glass…which I didn’t calibrate before hand because it never works. This was my second attempt ever at calibration so there’s probably a step that I am not aware of.
    I used the profile for Coated 1 and I thought that I applied it to all media (most of our print settings are set to “plain” stock). Am I correct in assuming that it is applied to all media if I select the “apply to all media” option? Or does it not work that way?!
    Another issue is after my failed calibration I had to create a new source profile and adjusted the curves to achieve the colour I was after….now, how to I set my new profile as the default, so everyone in the office who prints to the Xerox gets the colours appropriate for our printing needs?

    Am I still making sense, or can you barely hear me over these workflow issues currently drowning me?


    While we’re on the subject of colour…
    My yellow is never pure no matter what program what profile…I’ve sussed it out a bit but I am nervous to change any settings in case I am wrong, get distracted and never remember to revert back to before the change. Does anyone know how to get the Xerox to consistently output 100% Yellow without the Xerox adding magenta and cyan to it?
    So in total my queries are, someone help me calibrate?!
    Change default Source profiles?!!
    Print 100% Yellow(no warming or cooling with magenta or cyan), always, every time…consistently….?!!!


    On a side note, is it just me or has Xerox totally overlooked colour consistency in this model?
     
  2. k_graham

    k_graham Senior Member

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    I need help calibrating my machine to get the best colour matching…
    Currently I am using Fiery RIP w/ DocuColour 6075. I tried to calibrate it this morning at it made no difference what so ever….
    Unfortunately we can’t afford a Densitometer here so I am calibrating off the glass…

    All copiers have some form of Gradation adjustment which should be done after first turning off the copier then turning it on, I suggest a 92 or less brightness paper for this so UV brightners do not affect it.


    Does the software permit a Spectrometer? If so thats the better route to go, a UV cut, revision 4, off Ebay with color profiler 2.x software and flat screen monitor attachment so you can get your monitors profiled as well, I've bought 2 for about 600.00 U.S. each delivered, I've seen them for less but only for sale within U.S.

    which I didn’t calibrate before hand because it never works. This was my second attempt ever at calibration so there’s probably a step that I am not aware of.

    I'm not using your model but all Fiery's are the same idea, supposedly tweaked to each machine - 1st though you should make sure all patches are applied - some machines are so bad that way if you don't apply one patch for instance on a Ikon cpp500 for instance then it is set up as a 8050 its predecessor which had mat instead of glossy toner.


    I used the profile for Coated 1 and I thought that I applied it to all media (most of our print settings are set to “plain” stock). Am I correct in assuming that it is applied to all media if I select the “apply to all media” option? Or does it not work that way?!

    First make a copy off the glass and keep it as a reference - I like one with a woman in a white wedding dress, the shadows in the wedding dress and lace should be grey shadows, not pink, yellow or blue. Fine detail should be visible - washed out happens when developer is worn out - skin tones should match. Xerox has always been pretty good but some companies show a butterfly as a test print - unless you are a butterfly you won't know if the copier is producing good prints - thats what they bank on.

    For fiery, first reset the calibration and try outputting a Fiery sample with that, if you select the advanced mode you should be able to output one from there. If you have some difficult job try that setting 1st then do the off the glass calibration as below to see if you get better results.

    If you only do one profile then that could make all your other papers bad.
    I first do a profile for plain paper and apply to all calibrations. Next I do a profile for Heavy1, while using coated paper and apply that to Heavy1 and coated paper. I do this as my Xerox 240 prints double sided on Heavy 1 but not when set to coated paper so this trick allows me to double side coated paper within the copier. (may not be applicable to you) Then I do a Heavy 2 uncoated and apply only to Heavy uncoated, Then I do a Heavy 2 Coated and apply only to Heavy 2 Coated - you get the idea so each material used is adjusted for. As I now have a Spectro with UV Filter I am not too worried about the paper brightness but off the Glass I think you may be better off with lower brightness papers in the 92 range for calibration. You have the option of printing more than 1 sheet of paper to profile with I suggest a minimum of 2 you may prefer more so test sample is at a more accurate temperature. If any calibration sample has a flaw simply select a different sheet.


    Another issue is after my failed calibration I had to create a new source profile and adjusted the curves to achieve the colour I was after….now, how to I set my new profile as the default, so everyone in the office who prints to the Xerox gets the colours appropriate for our printing needs?

    Am I still making sense, or can you barely hear me over these workflow issues currently drowning me?

    Try my printer color workflow settings I set in printer RGB to NONE and in CMYK to NONE. (note NONE not OFF, I am of the understanding that none is still applying a profile, the maximum machine is capable of not some limiting profile) Normally I then use GRACol in my application - like Corel or CS5 though if thats too saturated I will use SWOP and in the case of some really heavy material I have another one referred to in Corel as Generic that in anything else would oversaturate the color.



    While we’re on the subject of colour…
    My yellow is never pure no matter what program what profile…I’ve sussed it out a bit but I am nervous to change any settings in case I am wrong, get distracted and never remember to revert back to before the change. Does anyone know how to get the Xerox to consistently output 100% Yellow without the Xerox adding magenta and cyan to it?
    So in total my queries are, someone help me calibrate?!
    Change default Source profiles?!!
    Print 100% Yellow(no warming or cooling with magenta or cyan), always, every time…consistently….?!!!

    Try what I said, about using NONE in the Fiery Printer RGB and CMYK settings, it is profiles that move color - or perhaps you are using RGB color, it should be 100% yellow if sending pure CMYK yellow - but a profile could add something - in Coreldraw you could turn off the the color profile in print options and not send as GRACol or SWOP or Euro or Generic, you may still have to adjust brightness more or less but should not have so many color issues, unless of course you haven't adjusted your monitors to the printing standard of 5000K instead of some bright web 9200k setting or at least compromise to 6500k which is still considered daylight, and you should also be using daylight flourescents, not 4200k cold white fluorescents.

    So tell us how it works doing the above.

    On a side note, is it just me or has Xerox totally overlooked colour consistency in this model?

    Maybe - but its Fiery that adds new overpriced features and hasn't figured out how to explain it because they are too busy making patches for the patches.

    RIP's I think are a bit of a ripoff, overpriced, underpowered, a money grab - someday someone will make a big 64 bit Linux based RAM frame buffer as a RIP so they can accept Multi Gigabyte files, I think NT is limited to 3 or 4 Gig, Linux EXT4 system should be good for much more with 64 bit operating system. Then they could gain huge memory probably using a Intel SSD and leave the processing to current 64 bit Workstations with 12 or more Gigabytes of RAM that cost about 1200.00.
    Their device then would be something along the line of the Lasermasters of a decade ago that ran dumb Canon or HP printers, should not cost more than 700.00 to make. Xerox could probably use a hack of their universal printer driver which already sends files to printers in Raster fashion. Of course they will probably still be looking for $15,000.00 for it but maybe someone in Memjet inkjet technology will do it for $700.00 and disrupt the big boys away. Kind of like what Apple did to Compugraphic, AM Varityper and other Typesetter companies.

    Ken
     
  3. Shannon

    Shannon Member

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    well it's been almost a month I'd say and it still isn't working...

    I tried what you said but the time i have to teach myself this machine is very minimal. I've tried phoning tech support asking for our fiery to be re-installed and patched.
    Apparently our Fiery is up to date but I'm starting to get some shifty error messages and I should be screen capping them but I am so busy I don't even have time to remember that...


    The other day I went to print a business card that had a green of C: 50 M: 0 Y: 80 K: 0....Should be simple enough you'd think, but when it was printed the xerox/fiery chucked in some magenta and K. What the!?

    I am now at the point if anyone asked for my opinion on Xerox or Fiery I would tell them go Konica and go Creo...

    The Xerox technicians know very little about the Rips they sell packaged with the machines and it is infuriating the hell out of me. On top of this if I want some "training" in the rip it'll cost our business a further $1,200 (Aus) untop of the ridiculous price of the Xerox as is!!

    When I was running a Bizhub with the Creo I was flown to Sydney, given a Silver Service driver to take me to and from the airport (also a complimentary tour of sydney after my training thanks to the nice driver) to the Konica Minolta building, a full day of training for both the machine and the rip, lunch, and a care package with the nicest polo i've ever owned, the best thermal I've ever had the pleasure to drink from and a 3gig USB stick. All of this was considered under the original cost of the Konica Minolta package and was delivered with a smile and great serve plus training, which continued for my whole time of using the machine. The Sydney technicians would email me occasionally to touch base, which is something they did on their own accord....

    Also all of these techs and training staff were once a part of Fuji Xerox and left because they were fed up with the service they were forced to give.


    So in conclusion there is something wrong with the RIP they have supplied, and I have to pay $1,200 just for the pleasure of finding out exactly what was wrong with the RIP so they believe me when I say it's not printing colour at a professional standard.


    This machine is for noobs. End rant.


    Sorry if I offended anyone but jeez...
     
  4. k_graham

    k_graham Senior Member

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    1. Fiery has a forum http://fieryforums.efi.com/index.php? They also have some online courses for a price, less than what Xerox has quoted you and you could probably then ask on the forums if they don't answer your questions.

    2. Attach a pdf or post on line using Google Docs the setup of your copier - it will let me people on line see your patch history and that you have actually done the calibrations for Paper, Card, Gloss Card, and saved them to the RIP - and that they did actually save - I have seen a Fiery not actually apply them - that would tell Xerox your system indeed has issues and what it is.

    3. Attach a screen printout of your expert settings, hopefully as I suggested to setup - that sounds like you could have paper simulation on in the Fiery - which is not possible if you set CMYK and RGB to none. Alternatively a color profile in the sending application - can you turn it off. Alternatively your Fiery is broke.

    EFI Fiery will also want your sending Computer Operating system, What computer program file was sent from and version, also which color profile are you using? Do us the kindness of providing the same info.

    If you check Fiery threads regarding the spectro you will find people wanting professional color have one - I told you how I picked up 2 for about 600.00 each off Ebay. Read the notes in previous reply so you get one that includes the software for profiling your monitor and paper as well.

    You can download the GraCol color profiles from gracol.org

    In short provide all the info requested above and maybe we can help you otherwise you are on your own, and yes the Fiery could have a software misconfiguration - I had a bad one where the disks they provided indicated no errors but yet were bad. Xerox replaced harddrive and had same issue before figuring it out - but they did figure it out - my cpp500 Konica Minolta from Ikon was a total disaster as they neglected to update software for the toner type in it having software for the 8050 instead. I contacted EFI and found that part of the solution but was not informed printer drivers must be upgraded to match the patch update. I contacted a Konica Minolta dealer and said I would buy a 2nd if they could fix this one and they washed their hands of it -- so I now own 2 Xerox's that have worked well.

    Ken
     
  5. xfactor printing

    xfactor printing Senior Member

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    When you say it never works to calibrate the scanner first, do you get a specific error message always from this step?
     
  6. Shannon

    Shannon Member

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    Hi Ken, wrote a big thing and ran away then computer crashed. So here is the shortened version.

    So, I don't have control over accounts I am just a simple employee trying to do my best with the resources I have available. This is why we don't have a spectrometer and wont be getting one (would you believe I work for professional offset printers). I cry myself to sleep at night...

    My Expert Settings:
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/56762471


    Machine Setup:
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/56762296/Setup-Summary

    I'm using Windows XP I think (Mac user alert). I am sending files from the latest versions of Acrobat, InDesign and Corel. In all instances we use the expert settings and let the RIP determine the colours.

    Do you know how to have the expert setting as default, because if I print something from Corel, apply the settings then print it again it prints on the Basic setting instead of expert, it's a bit annoying having to change it all the time.

    I hope that helps you help me!! Thank you for your patience :)

    XFactor:

    No the machine goes through the scanning measurements and then nothing happens, it returns to the copy screen. No success no error...it's unnerving because I have had no training in this machine, I'm winging everything and I worry that I do more harm then good so that's why I haven't been trying since then.
     
  7. Shannon

    Shannon Member

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    I forgot this part earlier....


    I had actually gone onto the Fiery website last week. I immediately got excited by their downloadable resources. I downloaded one called "ABCs of Colour" thinking that could be a good place to start, I haven't finished reading it yet. If only I had some time...
    I have read the first 20 pages I guess...though when I reached chapter one the fire inside immediately died.

    Chapter one was titled: "Good Enough Colour" *cries*

    The end of the guide could prove useful and I should find sometime to read it tomorrow. I was wondering if you've read anything of these Fiery ABC guides...where did you find all of your knowledge?!! You seem to know more then the techs at Xerox...i'm suspecting you are one...or maybe the Canada Xerox Centre is nicer and more informative than the Australian one....

    Our valet service just changed over the yellow drum without removing the protective covering, I wasn't around and someone was trying to print a proof and there was no yellow coming out.

    It's a click charge conspiracy, I swear. But I think Bin Ladden is still alive so that point holds no validity.
     
  8. k_graham

    k_graham Senior Member

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    What is supposed to happen with Windows is you set the printer preferences outside of any program and those are your defaults but I have had that give troubles with XP and honestly am not sure of the simplest answer - I am thinking of updating a XP to Win7 32 bit as I think we've now got all the drivers we need to make the transition, we were using Windows 7 already but had one Docucolor 12 with no Win 7 driver so were using the XP computer to print to it.

    I see from your Fiery settings you are usng EFI RGB5 , CMYK Simulation ISOCoated , Have you tried setting them to NONE as I suggested, I assume you are using color profiles in Coreldraw for instance, it is pretty much a requirement by having them set to NONE in driver we have had better results. Also you have Spot Color On, Our Artist had made a rather nice cover in Reflex Blue but multiple shades we were going to print on the press, I found the shaded areas looked better when printed from the copier with Spot Color Off, you might give that a try.

    On our Docucolor 240 our RIP setup sheets include mention of when the last profile took place - yours are missing that, or you did not attach a sheet - if missing I would bring that to Xerox and or Fiery attention on their forum. It could indicate a verifiable software problem or simply your neglecting to save the calibration. A previous model a Canon CLC we had with Fiery RIP had that near end of life where it would not save the color settings, probably requiring a re-install of software.
     
  9. k_graham

    k_graham Senior Member

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    Well I am a printer and also feel rather put off by a 2 or 3000.00 Spectometer. My last one was purchased on Ebay from this guy who I see tonight has yet another one on I had to ask him to add Canada to his list.

    http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130528265162&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:CA:1123

    Ours was fully functional when it arrived by mail as listed - as it was over a year old it would cost a couple hundred or more to have it recertified but as is I am happy. If you show your boss some forum messages off EFI showing that a Spectophtometer is useful for monitor and printer profiling and show them one available for a sixth the price and if Ebay seller agrees to ship to Australia then maybe the boss will agree. There is free downloadable software from Ebay site to confirm the unit is working which should be done on arrival. That case its in is foam all through, they would have to drop a cement truck on it to damage it.

    Ken Graham
     
  10. Shannon

    Shannon Member

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    I'm serious when I say I beg and plead for a Spectrometer everyday, I show him the glory of it all over the internet and I told him that the Xerox wont be "professional" without one....I just started here about two months ago, the first week I taught him the benefits of the Google search engine....I am a long way away from him grasping how any knowledge could come from a forum...if it was carved on a cave wall he might believe it, shouldn't speak too harshly he is quick to learn some stuff, could be on here trolling any day...

    but back to the ShockingColour (I have renamed it)

    So I gather by what you're saying that it is best to let the program handle the colours? So I set my docucolour Input profiles to none, and when outputting from corel I let corel "handle" the colours?

    Is this correct?

    **Spot colours have been turned off also**
     
  11. plotter

    plotter Senior Member

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    if you were given that service by konica, why change over to xerox?
     
  12. k_graham

    k_graham Senior Member

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    That how I have found works best, your still providing the paper profile in the copier and as I mentioned I calibrate for paper, coated paper-as Heavy1, Card and Coated Card and set to match copy so if its paper it uses paper profile or if a mixture like a front cover it will automatically apply the profile. You haven't yet shown your profiles which should be on your machine printout.

    Regards Corel I have the printer set to GRACol which I downloaded the profile from GRACol.org - same with Adobe. However you appear to be using the European profiles so if you like the ISO profile you may download it from the Fiery - the profiles in the Fiery are Exportable to your hard disk. One setting on Corel in Color management comes to mind - I have Corel 14 and there is a setting - Color Mode used for effects - I find I have to set it to RGB - (used in settings previous to Corel3). If I don't do that colors don't have life. You can also download the Adobe Color Rendering Engine and use it with Corel -at least I am in 14 -

    With Corel my findings are GRACol from Gracol.org provides a reasonably close print out to CALIBRATED monitor but I sometimes want to print at 90% brightness in spite of Spectro. If I set to SWOP an older setting the colors are less saturated than monitor. If I choose Generic printer profile they are more overstated - I do however use the Generic profile if I am printing heavier card than I'm supposed to or want something Gaudy.
     
  13. k_graham

    k_graham Senior Member

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    Sorry I used incorrect terminology in the last email - I should have said for Output profile I use Media Defined Profile - not match copy.

    The idea being that if heavy 1 is selected its going with the media, which is normally Coated paper but thats the only way to get my Xerox to print coated in the machines and Duplex. If a Booklet is being created with coated paper cover and regular paper inside the Media Defined Profile should automatically select the correct profile .

    While at it the idea of having spot color matching off was that I got better results when printing something as Reflex Blue with gradations. The reasoning I am guessing is they tweak the pantone color to be more accurate at 100% but don't do as good a job on the gradations where it might vary from 100% to 10%. It would be interesting to see if others have had the same results. Now the catch to the above statement is I had done this back before I had the Spectrometer - the next time I get asked to do this job again I may try both ways again to see if having a Spectrometer improved the look of the Gradations to better than when "Spot Color is not selected". Another excuse I might make for not having Spot Color turned on is if the job is to be printed on a printing press then I am better to be proofing as CMYK to match my 4 color press - not to be adding spot colors which should be ran as separate plates on the press.


    Ken
     
  14. StephenL

    StephenL New Member

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    Shannon, can you send me an email please?
    Grab the vCard from my profile.
     
  15. techie

    techie Member

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    I notice that you are in Australia. I work for FX in New Zealand. If you ring Fuji Xerox. Select the option for Network Printer assistance. Ask for the Anylyst to remote into your PC and he/she will take you through the calibration process.. In my opinion those machines should be supplied with the x-rite EYE 1 calibrator but they aren't.I believe that they are approx $3000.00NZ. The calibrator is an option on that level of machine.It isn't 'til you get to our larger production machines that a calibrator is supplied. Calibration off the Glass gives a result but not always good enough for some depending on expectations/criticalness of colour/preference. As for training, FX gives training at install...then any more is chargeable. The phone support that I mentioned about is FREE. If there is a problem with the RIP then there shouldn't be a charge to reload the software. That Fiery is attached to the machine so included in the FSMA. If you have purchased a standalone RIP then that may be a different story.

    I have been through situations like yours before..so I have gone away ,borrowed an Eye1 from another customer, calibrated the machine and hey presto..a good result. I only did this to prove the difference between the calibration. Sounds like you need a sprectrometer!! Ring FX do the remote pc thing and see how that goes.
     

  16. bcp

    bcp Member

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    Hi Shannon
    I am upgrading printer & it's down to the last 2 which are the Fuji Xerox 6075 II with Firey RIP & Konica Minolta Bizhub 6500 with a Fiery Controller External (IC-303). I see that you have used both (not same rips tho) in your opinion which was best. I'd appreciate your opinion. thanks
     
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