Unbeatable Ryobi 3302 toning.

Hey everyone,

The monster of a toning issue is back. Or actually it never left. I've got a Ryobi 3302 with the Crestline Altra system on it. Both heads have all new rollers except for the hard rollers (every rubber roller is brand new). I'm using Total Chrome Free fountain solution at about half an ounce to a 28oz bottle, and poly plates. The first head runs fairly well, but the second head gives me this wide band of toning from the OPS to the NOPS. I've attached a picture to this message so you can see what I mean.

I've checked and re-checked the roller stripes countless times, every form roller plus all the Crestline adjustments. The stripes are set to spec, and are the same as they are on the first unit, which prints well. Same plates, same fountain solution ratio, same everything, and yet there must be some variable that's screwing me up. What could it be? I don't recall when the problem started - it's definitely been since I put new rollers in, but when I switched ink rollers, I actually did that head first and then did the first head, which, again, prints well. Not to harp on that, but I just want to drive home the point that I've done all the obvious things and still can't beat this. I'm seriously at a loss.

Before I call in the technician, I figured I'd make one more last ditch effort to figure this out. Can anyone think of anything?

Thanks,
- Lantz

 

Lantz
when you set the forms are they in the print position ? it looks like your second form is not touching the oscilator proper to me and the gap is showning half down the sheet as it drags therefor you get a large ban
FSA

 

Hey FSA,

Thanks for the reply. The way I set forms is the way it always has been: I mount a plate on the cylinder and ink up the rollers. I let the ink mill in for 15-20 seconds, stop the press for a few seconds, then drop the forms to the plate. I take them off, the measure the stripe. I then make adjustments as necessary.

Is there a different method for this that I should be using?

Also, how would I set each form roller to the oscillator?

Thanks,
- Lantz

 

Lantz
Yes , take out rollers so you can see the the forms. Drop the forms on the plate and leave them down and move the press to check and adjust them. I set all presses with a heavier strip to the oscillator. That way the roller speed is matched to the rest of the rollers train. So for ryobi 3300 series I would have a 3mm to the oscillator and a touch less to the plate. Just do all your inspecting of the nip in the print position and always recheck.
FSA

 

Hey FSA, thanks for your input. I totally missed this reply, probably because I actually got the press working for a minute. I went through pressures again and made some adjustments, but also found that there was a ton of dried ink and crap preventing my ink ductor roller from ducting properly, so the Crestline wasn't getting enough ink. Once I fixed that, it was almost too easy. But since the weather has gotten a little warmer, the toning disease is back!

So you don't check the stripe on the plate, you leave the forms engaged and just inch the press to measure it on the roller? I definitely haven't been doing that but it's worth a shot. My pressures right now are: ink forms to plate - 3mm, water form to plate - 4mm. Crestline adjustments (pan to metering, etc etc) are all set to spec according to the manual. I tried setting the ink forms to 2.5mm and the toning got worse, plus it seemed like the oscillator was very sluggish and it was slower to clean up. Where they're at now, the ink train cleans up fast and seems to run okay, but there's still too much water going to the plate. Maybe the answer lies in the Crestlines - I've checked them and reset them so many times, I could swear they're exactly how they should be. But the pan roller still has trouble cleaning up at the ends so maybe that's a clue.

Anymore ideas?

 

Drastic temp changes will make you have to readjust crestline stripes. I hate these dang units!

Have you checked for form roller end play? And also check to be sure one of the form shafts is not worn out. You'd be able to lift/wiggle the form roller a bit. Check 1 of the form rollers is not 180* out. Does not sound like it is but if 1 roller adjusts the opposite then it is. That is one helluva tone line. For S&G's have you tried a different fountain solution? I'm kinda surprised Total Chrome Free runs well with poly plates. I used it for years with metal but always ran like $#!t on poly.

 

I will check the form roller end play on Monday, and also try setting the form rollers the way you mentioned earlier. I kind of hate Crestlines too, they're just so finicky.

I have to say, that Total Chrome Free actually works really well. I was using the generic pink stuff before and had problems, although I'm sure there was a different reason for that, most likely pressures. But there are so many variables, once you get something that gives you better results, you don't really want to mess with it!

 

By the way, how do I set each form to the oscillator? I've only ever done form to plate. I found an adjustment in the manual that points to two screws to adjust form to oscillator, but are there a set of screws for each roller? After looking, it seemed like that there were only two, so I wasn't sure how to adjust each form roller.

 

Well I have had presses in the past the rollers change in temps changes. So I ask if you know what brand of your roller they are? I have had some very good success with recovered rollers over mast produce rollers (syn-tac). One thing that could help you is a spiral metering roller that has two compounds in it whichever help you.

Many presses running bare back systems will have a cold and hot setting. That's is normal to me. Getting used to how the machine changes is now your next challenge to master on this system.

FSA

 

They're Syn-Tac rollers. I haven't had any problem with Syn-Tac in the past though. They're usually great.

I'm heading in to the shop shortly to launch into this. Can you clarify how to set each form roller to the oscillator?

Thanks!

 

I put the forms in the print position and leave them there to set to the oscillator, and when chech ing to the plate have them in the print position walk the press a couple of revolutions sit , then lift and inspect. This takes out the bounce factor when the forms are engaged. And go back to the oscillator. And check it again. One setting affect the other.

When checking and setting end play there is a little 2.5mm Allen screw lock that is tough to get to. If you have that too tight it will do weird things to your setting. Need .002" end play for the forms not to bind.

As far as roller brand , I guess they ( syn-tac) send to crapy ones to Canada. I have almost four decades on 40" presses and recovered rollers have just out preformed bought brands hands downs.

FSA

 

Thanks FSA. The thing I am actually trying to clarify is this: is there an adjustment to set EACH form roller to the oscillator? The only one I know of is the flat head screws in those little holes on each side of the press, for the water form. The other screws are in the little panel doors where you make the form to plate adjustments, and those screws are next to springs on the bottom of that panel. Is there another adjustment I'm missing? Should each form roller have thesr screws?

Anyway, I'll ink up and take most rollers out to try your method of setting the forms.

 

yes each roller has an adjustment , end play is on the gear side , do you have a manual ? or do you still have the pictures on the inside of the doors still?

 

There definitely aren't any pictures on the inside of the doors. I do have a manual but it's a pretty crappy photocopy so most of the images aren't clear. The page on setting form to oscillator points to one screw only, and doesn't mention that each form roller has an adjustment the oscillator. So I'll look for those and also at the end play. I've never measured that before and don't really know how but I'm sure I'll notice if it seems really unreasonable. I'll update later today.

Thanks for the help.

 

Alright, so this was a learning experience. First of all, when I took out the distributor rollers and took a good look at the forms, I realized that neither the second nor third form roller was locked in on the shaft. They looked like they were oscillating! With the press off, I tugged a little bit on that roller shaft and it just came right out. Duh. So I got those nice and locked in and the form rollers were spinning as they should. I then went through and set all the form to oscillator pressures and double checked my form to plate pressures. The Crestlines were just right. The ink train cleaned up pretty fast too.

No time to print on it today, as I have some other work to do and have to take off in a couple of hours, but I'll try running a plate tomorrow and update everyone.

 

Still having toning problems. I don't understand it; the plate is just not cleaning up. The form rollers are about 3mm, maybe a hair thinner. And they're locked in tight this time, no end play. I set the form to oscillator pressure to 3mm, while the rollers were in the print position. What else could it be? I spent a long time on this yesterday inked up with yellow, and now I'm inked up with black. It feels like I'm forever inking up with black and having to clean up because it's printing like crap, then inking up with yellow and messing with things. Any other ideas?

 

This is me grasping at straws: I noticed when I took the water out today that there was some ink residue in the water pan, and the press hadn't really run that much. I can't remember if this is normal or not, but awhile back the screw that adjusts the water level in one of the pans got misadjusted. I fixed it, but I'm wondering if maybe the water level is too high? If there's too much water going into the Crestline, that will prevent sufficient inking and cause emulsification, if I'm not mistaken. I hit everything with overnight spray and will clean up tomorrow, then swap out the pans to test the theory. Although I suppose I will ink up with yellow again too and check pressures.....AGAIN...

 

This can be somewhat normal. If the ink really piles and emulsifies it can collect on the forward lip of the pan. Sometimes inside. My press has a water recirculation unit and water is normally 1/8" below the top of the pan. Sounds like your level is ok. Ink residue can also collect in the water pan from washups. Also are you inking up the Crestline before you print? It should be inked up before water is put in.

 

Then I'm at a complete loss, and maybe it really is the pressures somewhere. I usually take the pan off to do washups after I drain the water. Since the press is not yet in a condition to run multiple colors in a day, there hasn't been a need to do multiple washups.

I do ink up the Crestline with a light dab across the metering roller. One thing I notice is that on the NOPS, the ink gets really smoothed out, but is more striped on the OPS. I think it still looked like that the last time it ran clean but at this point I just have no idea what the problem could be. I've checked and adjusted those pressures so many times. Hoping to get it resolved soon though.

 

Lantz
whats your email and i'll send you service manual, Parts manual and electrical manual in pdf.