Triumph 4810-95 knife sometimes stops mid-stroke

[Scott Franco]

Hi,

I have read up in the forums about problems with the triumph cutter. I could use some confirmation.
I bought the cutter used, cleaned it up, replaced some parts, and now it works mostly.

Sometimes the knife stops mid-stroke. Sometimes that will be in the middle of the cutting stack. Usually the issue goes away after turning it off and on, or waiting.

The prescribed answer is to sharpen the blade. I don't believe that is the issue because I remove the stack of paper and it still stops at the same place, IE, it is cutting air and still stops. I also checked if the clamp is rubbing, but taking off the top cover, I can see daylight between the clamp and blade.

One of the posts here said the limit switch may have gone bad. All advice appreciated.

Scott Franco
San Jose, CA

 

[CHOCK]

Hi sir;

If you have the schematic electrical for his model 4810; please review limit switches; S5+s6+s16, for dirty, defective, or loose wires, in l. switch, repair or replace it.

 

[Scott Franco]

Thanks! I'll post the result.

 

[CHOCK]

ok

Blessing

 

[Scott Franco]

hi,

My machine has a s5 and s6, the top and bottom knife travel switches respectively. The are both Cherry E19s. I don't know, but think that S16 is the guard switch on the cover, which dosent exist on my machine.

The listing for various triumph support sites have those switches at $40 to $100. I found it on digikey for $10, and ordered two of them. In the meantime, I removed both switches, opened them, burnished the contacts, then tested them with a voltmeter and reinserted them. No help, it still stops midway about 1/2 to 1/4 of the time. I also checked the voltages on the switch terminals, and they also appeared proper. For example s6 indicates 27v at the common terminal, and the "on" terminal goes to 27v when activated, etc. When the machine stops mid-travel, the contactors kick out, and I am wondering if they are going bad. Its listed as ABB B16 on the side, and it is a 24v contactor relay.

 

[Scott Franco]

For what its worth, a sharp rap seems to restore it to function. I suspect an intermittent contact somewhere. Based on that I tightened all the contact screws I could, it didn't help.

 

[Scott Franco]

The contactor, which I figured out how to remove, is a b16-30-10. It goes for anywhere from $15 to $80 for the ABB brand, and MBM has it on it's Triumph part number for the truly stunning cost of $400. There's a lesson here, which is get a part for these machines by the part number printed on it, not by the Triumph part number.

 

[CHOCK]

i can understand very well.

However will be a good idea, replace all limit switch, since the machine is OLDER, and the duty cycle was intensive,

However the same things with the contactor, try to clean it, or replace only the contacts, for worn, or burn.

 

[Scott Franco]

Agreed. The contactor, I would replace, but it has been modified for the Triumph. Perhaps that is why MBM wants $400 for it. Otherwise I would just replace it.

 

[CHOCK]

That's the simple truth .

Blessings

 

[Scott Franco]

The continuing saga of the Triumph 4810 paper cutter

Found out that the 4810 I have does not actually match the 4810-95 schematics available. The other post here has a more accurate one. I now believe it is an older version of the 4810 referred to as a 4810 A. Not sure it really matters since I traced it out anyways. I pulled one of the contactors and replaced it with the Chinese knock off. I traced the wiring carefully and made a diagram, and I am so lying. I got it wrong the first time, then put the old one back in, figured out what I did wrong, then made the diagram. Then replaced with the chinese contactor. Didn't work. Got stuck halfway, and would not even reset. I noticed that I could manually start the motor by pressing the contactors, and go either up or down. Then I discovered that because there are no limit switches this way, you can easily run the motor off the end of the gear. Do what now? Yes, there are dead spots in the drive gear and you can easily run into them. Then you have to manually move the knife, which is not as much fun as it sounds.

Removed the original ABB contactor and took it apart. Whatever possessed me to do that? Well, I looked up the b16-30-10 contactor online. Turns out that they are $200 or more for new, and there are lots of "refurbished" ones for about $50. I sez to me "hey, if they can refurbish then I can refurbish". Just as soon as I look up what "refurbish" means (kidding, don't write me a long explanation). Anyways, how do you take it apart? Of course, the times being the times, there are like 10 youtube vids showing you this. I took it apart, found a dead bug in it in fact, and now it lays in parts before me.

It is very pitted and burnt.

More to follow I am sure.

 

[CHOCK]

ok


Let me know, if you need more Tip.

 

[Scott Franco]

So where does the carbon on burnt switches come from? Its arcing, sure, but electricity cannot make carbon from air.

Anyways, I examined the contacts more closely, they don't look pitted after all, just heavily carbonized. I guess power switching is a dirty business. My guess would be that newer machines use silicon based (solid state) power switching and don't have this issue.

These machines are dirt simple after all. Its a motor, two big relays (the contactors), and some other switches and power supplies.

I suspect ABB does not make the B16 switch anymore, which is why the high prices and refurbs going on. The triumph cutters like the 4810 must be very old. The thing is they are built like tanks and won't die until they go to the smelter.

Finally, it is very clear to me that the seller of this machine knew quite well that the machine had issues. When am I going to learn the lesson about buying used equipment? You buy used, you buy other people's problems as well.

Scott

 

[CHOCK]

Good lesson Sir

 

[Scott Franco]

Finished my refurbishment of the contactors, I did both of them. Reinstalled, the cutter now works fine.

So the lesson here is not to simply look at the up and down switches, but also look into the contactors as well. The refurb was not bad, I used one of the several Utube videos to guide me. I actually bought a knockoff b16-30-10 contactor from China. I tried that as a replacement for the up contactor, but it didn't work because the down contactor was the problem. I ended up using parts from the knockoff contactor for the refurb, mainly because during the refurb process I lost one of the springs. The parts are directly interchangable.

I didn't really give the knockoff contactor a fair chance. I checked the operation with a meter, it was fine, but the coil resistance read 181 ohms whereas the ABBs were 6 ohms, and an online source said it shouldn't be more than 100 ohms. But it could well have worked as a replacement.

I'll probably end up selling the 4810. They seem to hold value on ebay (new ones are $10,000). For the $1000 or so this unit could fetch I can buy a fully automated cutter from China.

Anyways, thanks for the help! I'll next get the blade sharpened.

Scott