TOYO Inks

Just curious.

You have stated the supplier often comments about poor performance or inconsistent performance of the type of ink you wanted. Can you comment on what you mean by poor performance? It can be so many things. Thanks.
It's the ink manufacturer Toyo, the head office, in a phone conversation with senior staff there that's providing this limited answer as to why they stopped. At the suggestion that it was market demand (a decline in printed books and concentrating more on printed packaging), they said it was a failure to achieve consistent results across "a variety of substrates" and that printers were dissatisfied, so they abandoned it. I submitted that for very carefully designed and executed books, and with the knowledge we've gained in the centuries since Gutenberg's invention, we've learned a great deal about what makes for comfortable extended reading, and glossy text with glare is an impediment, particularly in lengthy scholarly works. Their explanation is also somewhat at odds with a response received from another regional branch, where they stated that although poor demand was behind no longer offering it as a standard option, if we ordered 800 kg, they'd still mix it, a min. quantity. In all exchanges, I covered with them the paper stock used and the equipment. Suffice to say there's major resistance. That's partly why an LLM explanation seemed enlightening: matting agents scatter light and interfere with UV curing. The stock was chosen for its inherent matte properties, which is now at cross ends with UV ink's gloss. I cannot do a matte varnish to the entire page as we wish to keep the virgin white paper free from a coating and the many images work perfectly with the process UV inks as is. We'd do a spot for text.
 
It's the ink manufacturer Toyo, the head office, in a phone conversation with senior staff there that's providing this limited answer as to why they stopped. At the suggestion that it was market demand (a decline in printed books and concentrating more on printed packaging), they said it was a failure to achieve consistent results across "a variety of substrates" and that printers were dissatisfied, so they abandoned it. I submitted that for very carefully designed and executed books, and with the knowledge we've gained in the centuries since Gutenberg's invention, we've learned a great deal about what makes for comfortable extended reading, and glossy text with glare is an impediment, particularly in lengthy scholarly works. Their explanation is also somewhat at odds with a response received from another regional branch, where they stated that although poor demand was behind no longer offering it as a standard option, if we ordered 800 kg, they'd still mix it, a min. quantity. In all exchanges, I covered with them the paper stock used and the equipment. Suffice to say there's major resistance. That's partly why an LLM explanation seemed enlightening: matting agents scatter light and interfere with UV curing. The stock was chosen for its inherent matte properties, which is now at cross ends with UV ink's gloss. I cannot do a matte varnish to the entire page as we wish to keep the virgin white paper free from a coating and the many images work perfectly with the process UV inks as is. We'd do a spot for text.
I have followed your other posts on the subject so I did know some of the background. But thanks anyhow for your in depth reply. So as I understand it now, Toyo did not clarify how the matt inks did not perform well. I have seen that you have put a lot of effort in getting this right and I hope you can finally get the results you are looking for. Good luck.
 
  • I have followed your other posts on the subject so I did know some of the background. But thanks anyhow for your in depth reply. So as I understand it now, Toyo did not clarify how the matt inks did not perform well. I have seen that you have put a lot of effort in getting this right and I hope you can finally get the results you are looking for. Good luck.
    Correct, Toyo didn't specify beyond not working well on "some" substrates, so it's unclear precisely what is meant, but it's intended to be the rationale behind cancelling production. I'd love to know if anyone here had experience with their matte UV ink. After much petitioning across different regional branches, they said they'd possibly look into doing a small batch if it's technically feasible to mix that small of a quantity, but it's now looking unlikely. Market forces reign, and art plays second fiddle.
     
    Correct, Toyo didn't specify beyond not working well on "some" substrates, so it's unclear precisely what is meant, but it's intended to be the rationale behind cancelling production. I'd love to know if anyone here had experience with their matte UV ink. After much petitioning across different regional branches, they said they'd possibly look into doing a small batch if it's technically feasible to mix that small of a quantity, but it's now looking unlikely. Market forces reign, and art plays second fiddle.
    I really find it hard to believe that they can't mix a small batch. I worked for a company for about 3 1/2 years that printed with the Dry Offset process for printing on plastic food containers. All inks were spot colours and the in house ink department, mixed inks in small batches all the time from formulas. Of course ink suppliers will bend over backwards for large customers to help develop formulas and provide advice. I suspect that you are a small customer to them and the real reason is that they don't want to do anything for you. Maybe that is the only reason.

    As you say, market forces rule. Possibly Toyo missed an opportunity to show that they care. We know from your experience with them that they don't. Too bad.
     
    I really find it hard to believe that they can't mix a small batch. I worked for a company for about 3 1/2 years that printed with the Dry Offset process for printing on plastic food containers. All inks were spot colours and the in house ink department, mixed inks in small batches all the time from formulas. Of course ink suppliers will bend over backwards for large customers to help develop formulas and provide advice. I suspect that you are a small customer to them and the real reason is that they don't want to do anything for you. Maybe that is the only reason.

    As you say, market forces rule. Possibly Toyo missed an opportunity to show that they care. We know from your experience with them that they don't. Too bad.
    It is unfortunate. I've spent 4.5 years, indeed thousands of hours, and an ungodly sum (20x our original subvention/grant) on this legacy high-mark publication on a seminal mid-century architect. What I gather, in sympathetic phone calls with several experienced and earnest people within the company, is there is a willingness to do right by serving a high-end, aspirational publication, but now it's the sales head of the EU stepping in to put the kibosh on that effort and sympathy. There may be a need to appeal to someone else above his station. The company has split somewhat and is now known as one within the "artience group". I can enlist Japanese colleagues to craft messaging to the Japanese managers or parent group. But let me dial back here - the EU sales head contends/asserts that depending on the materials, the matting agent, and the equipment, it can be difficult to mix small quantities. I can conceive that it's not like working with PMS mixing as we're dealing with matting agents that need to disperse properly. But I will do whatever is necessary, yet must draw the line at spending thousands of euros to buy their massive MQO. This is a smaller print run and may increase 5x to 10x for the next expected print run, but still nowhere near their MQO.
     
  • Just received a Toyo reply 4 days later than initially promised. It's a 2-line reply with corporate hedging language a la we discussed it internally (no details) and we're not able to work on this and meet this request for matte LED formulations (though they offered it 6-8 years ago and the Baltic branch stated they can do it if it's a MQO of 800kg). Feels like an evasion, not an explanation, and after 5 weeks delay over this and almost 20 conversations/emails across branches, that explains very little.

    Printer responded regarding the backup plan to use an OPV on text only, saying this would delay us to March, they haven't done it before, and cannot guarantee results. They also referred to the matte ink as untested and to a need to stay with proven, known results.

    So... years of investment, a decision to move the entire printing job out of Taipei just to use this premium matte stock, all after a series of initial and very intentional design decisions to support glare-free readability, and one very expensive proof test that uncovered this here-to-fore unknown (to us) gloss/glare issue with UV ink, and this is where things stand. Very dissatisfied.
     
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    I am ready to take an aggressive stance. At 54 years of age personally, and the primary benefactor of this publication (son of the architect) in his final stages, and an embarrassing >150,000usd invested over 4.5 years, I cannot be stopped by bureaucratic ink sales managers. I am in high-risk/reward territory.
     
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