Ricoh 651 / 751 experience

Sounds like you need me to come down there with Mr. Splinter and lay the smack down on them.

 

Yes, we do have the agreement, but they aren't standing behind it. Basically our hands are tied a this point. We asked them to give us pricing on the 901 and to take this unit out and we would pay the difference and they won't even do that. We also asked them to give us pricing on a black and white unit to take some load off this machine and they haven't done that either - that was back in March. They have no intentions on standing behind their brand.

 

We have a two great service technicians working on the machine, they have their backs to the wall with the machine, because no sooner do they replace something - it fails withing days or weeks. Right now we have 3 fusers on hand and not one of them is any good. They have replaced all of the above listed you suggested, however none of the above has proven to help. We are hearing from other customers that all of these units are giving problems to Ricoh and they don't have a fix. We continuously have feeding issues from the back trays, registration movement front to back from the fiery doesn't work at all from a MAC computer, color registration jumps out every month or so, transfer belts have been replaced to the tune of an average of 1-2 a month, SC 285 error code has occured in excess of 250 times since the unit was installed which is an average of 3 times per say equating to signifcant loss of production, paper waste and down time etc etc. It sure would be great if the unit would stay running or Ricoh would stand behind their unit, take it out and put in a 901 and we even offered to pay an increasted payment.

 

I know people like to be as nice and diplomatic as they can but now it's time for you to stop complaining and working with this company...you're going to have to get harsh and take a stand for yourself and your company.

1. Get a different brand machine from a different vendor if you don't already have a back up to continue printing for your customers.

2. Write a 15 business day (maximum), not 30, not 7 (although preferred time frame), letter stating that at the commencement of the 15 business days, from the date of the letter; your firm will stop using this machine and stop making any additional payments for the machine other than any remaining click charges that you may owe for actual click charges, and that the machine must be removed from your facility within that time frame or it will be put to the curb or a disposal/recycling company will be called and that the copier servicing company will be liable for any pickup or tow costs and that they will be deducted from any amount that you may give them. Indicate that if they dare push this matter legally you will be suing for punitive and compensatory damages and breach of contract as well as loss of business, attorney and legal fees. Also include a sentence on how this is no longer negotiable and any and all communication must be in writing. (important)

3. Send this letter priority mail for about 5 bucks with a tracking number so you know when they will receive it.

After that is done you move on and walk away from this horrible deal. I seriously doubt any court will rule in favor of the servicing company as long as you've documented what was expected and what was rec'd in terms of quality, service, performance, etc.

I've taken business law classes and we have an attorney on retainer for any issues that may arise. The courts usually expect you to follow some form of due diligence in order to show that you've done all that you reasonably could on your part...now you must sever yourself from this situation.

What can you expect? Well they will probably try to talk you out of it but refuse to talk to them...that's one reason why you state that you will only accept written communication from this point; so they can't claim you changed your mind. They may want more time to pick up the machine, if so, refuse. 15 business days is plenty of time. If you allow an extension you will only shoot yourself in the foot. They might not pick up the machine, oh well, not your problem anymore, you gave them fair notice...get rid of the machine then at that point...DO NOT assume the machine is now yours and continue to use it. GET RID OF IT! Of course they may just have enough balls to push you into court, doubtful, but possible. If they do get all your evidence and counter sue for the max; maybe you can get some lost revenue and damages from their negligence.

Now for the tough love. If I sound harsh on you, it's for your own good. It's like the spouse that gets beaten up and doesn't want to end the relationship...they need understanding but sternness because the fools will most likely end up going back to the abusive spouse.

Your willingness to try and resolve the problem diplomatic was nice and to be admired to a point...but after that fine line point you're nothing but a pushover and a fool. You're the only one that's going to stick up for your interests...and don't you dare get another machine from them! I'm only about 160 miles from NYC so I better not see a post about classycars getting a 901 from this company.

Really though, I hope you get out of this mess and find a solution that works for you. I've had lease like situations where I was getting taken advantage of and I fought to get out of them. It does work but you'll have to be your biggest champion...and throw diplomacy out the door.

Good Luck!

 

Thanks for the advise! Unfortunately, we purchased the machine with through a bank. We aren't leasing it. We now own the machine and have to keep paying for it. I wish it were all that easy.

 

Did you try talking to the bank to see if they'd help in any way.

It seems in this case that you'd probably have to sue them to get anything back or out of it.

 

Ricoh 751 Banding Issues

We are in the process of doing our due diligence on a Ricoh 651. Has anyone experienced these same banding issues/downtime issues on a 651. We have narrowed our search down to the Ricoh (Heidelberg Linoprint) 651, a Xerox 700 or 770 or a Canon ImagePressC6000.

Ay advice would be appreciated.

 

Ricoh 651

Good day to you all from the UK. Reading with interest the issues you guys have been having - experiencing the same here with our 651.
Main issues for us are as follows:
1. Banding - terrible quality and I am regularly having to move Digital jobs to our small offset for printing.
2. Registration - seems to be getting worse and will vary from sheet to sheet
3. Back-up - even on simple black only work on guaranteed stock the back-up will move from sheet to sheet
4. Fatal SC errors - 285 being our favourite!
5. Downtime - considerable due to numerous faults - just do not have the time to list them all.

Ricoh have sent numerous engineers to attempt to solve the problems - fixes seem to work while the engineer is here but we have even had to run to the car park to stop him before he left as that is how quickly the problems can re-occur.

We have been told that the main reason for the banding is that the machine is not on a solid concrete floor (currently situated on a second floor level) and the vibrations cause the issue! Your thoughts on this would be appreciated.

I have many years experience with different Xerox machines and had hoped the Ricoh would be better - afraid not.

My gut feeling tells me they have released a machine to market that is not ready - nor are the engineers ready to support it.

Downtime is excessive and reliability is just not there.

Hope this helps.

Neil in the UK

 

Hi, I have never participated in the forum, but Ricoh has sold to us "Lemmon Printers"
I have had similar problems like the Classycars or neiluk. I am in Central America and I am trying to return my machine to Ricoh and requesting a total refund. The machine is not reliable, breaks down constantly. I have had technicians from Colombia and Mexico and the Guatemalan technician is very good, but it must be that this machine was not ready to be launched to the market. I have different types of paper (bond, Husky, Couche, linen) and mainly 8.5x11, but some tabloid too.
I have on and off the following problems
1. Banding
2. Paper jamming (mainly when is high in color)
3. White dots in the prints.
4. Color variations during runs and within the same page
5. Almost impossible duplexing
6. Registration failure in the manual duplexing (out of register or not aligned)
7. Sometimes the machine just request for the technician and doesn´t start again.

In the car industry there is a Lemmon law to return a car that does not perform as offered (works in all the United States). Every Country has Customer protection laws (even federal laws)

I do not want to fight Ricoh, nor cause them any trouble, but I can not rely to build and develop my business on the Pro C651ex. I am just offering Ricoh to take the machine back, I even found a buyer for them, but they want me to incurr in all the expenses as if I simply don´t like the machine, when actually the machine is not performing as offered.

Any progress on the problems solutions in the New York, Chicago, Philadelphia or UK???

Sooner or later this problem will be to big for Ricoh to keep it quite and Heidelberg may even dissolve their venture with them with this technology.

I just hope Ricoh has a better long term vision to solve these issues instead of just trying to impose strength of the corporation on us the little customers.

Calssycars, Two32, bigirish73, kingpd, Bctnyli, Trevor, neiluk, we should try to request a solution to our many problems or our money back. Maybe the machine is good for other applications or some machines were just "Lemmon printers".

Maybe we´ll continue seeing in the forum. regards

 

Luis thank you for posting. I am actually in the process of making the purchasing decision as to which press we will be going with and this is valuable information that you offer. Sorry for the headaches you are having with your machine. Your comment regarding the Heidelberg and Ricoh relationship is interesting as I am actually dealing with Heidelberg for the Ricoh option we are considering. I think I will ask my Heidelberg rep what type of feedback he is getting regarding the Richo products he is installing. He is usually straight with us considering the $ millions we have spent on Heidelberg equipment.

 

Our problems continued to get worse, not better!

On 7/27/12 a RICOH tech came to fix one of our two banding problems (one of these problems is a thin striping/banding that occurs on jobs with solid/heavy coverage. To date, RICOH cannot fix this problem. The other "banding" problem is a wide, 1/2 inch band that goes from heavy coverage to light coverage and back again. RICOH has been able to fix this problem on a temporary basis. It always comes back.)

So, on 7/27/12, our RICOH tech came to "fix" our wide-banding problem. He arrived at 2:20pm. He removed the transfer belt and proceeded to vacuum and wipe down the entire machine from top to bottom. He then opened a BRAND NEW cyan developer unit, placed it in the machine and then restarted it. Guess what happened when he went to print something? You got it, the BRAND NEW - right out of the box - developer was "bad" and he had to order another one... it was 5:00pm. This is the norm, not the exception for us. We must have the worst luck in the world because we ALWAYS seem to get the “bad” developer unit that either doesn't work or starts causing us problems within a short amount of time. Needless to say, on this date I had had enough. I informed my local Field Service Manger that RICOH was no longer welcomed in my center unless they were coming by to pick up my machine. Since the 27th, we have stopped ALL use of our 751EX! We simply could not rely on our machine at all. There was (is) no reliability or quality consistency from day-to-day, let along, job-to-job. The amount of downtime we experienced with our machine was affecting our production schedule which, in turn, was affecting our staff morale, consumer service and profit!

Currently I have a plan of action in the works and will update this board shortly of its’ outcome.

PS. These two banding problems are NOT the only issues we have with the 751 but they are the most prominent!

 

More info

Look on internet about Ricoh- Heidelberg news. Ricoh handles press, media and internet articles extremely well. However from the "good news" you take pieces of information. In the little letters at the bottom of the articles Heidelberg says something as they are not responsible or they can not ensure Ricoh technologies development.
I think the 2nd or 3rd generation of Ricoh Pro C651 will be very good, once they correct of this operating, troubleshooting and installation processes. Maybe there are Lemmon printers as I say and it is not every machine but some of them. But right now the mechanical part of the machine is not performing as the design and the color theory require.
Be covered in your contract on the receiving after installing process and performance numbers in terms of downtime or inconsistent uptime due to need of technicians pressence and jamming, register, duplexing and color variation specs.
In theory, everything is superior color and material handling and cost. The point is to reach an equilibrium and steady operation. (That is not happening at my store, and I see it repeats in NY, Chicago, UK, etc.)
There are proven suppliers. I am sorry I trusted Ricoh in this venture and new technology. Check for the newest Fiery version, it helps easy operation for common but regular jobs.

 

Does this look black to you?

Attached is a sample print our service tech did a couple weeks ago. This is what our RICOH 751EX prints as halftone black (yes, I said black!). Besides the "black" color, notice the problems we had with both the "wide" and "thin" banding.

 

yikes!

 

Exactly!

 

Our 751 is on a concrete floor

WOW!!! This is EXACTLY what we have experienced with our 751 right down to the same error code SC285 AND running out into the parking lot to stop them from leaving because the issue comes right back or another one comes up. This is absolutely egregious that Ricoh would operate a company like this. And FYI; we have a solid concrete floor and have experienced all of the exact same issues.

 

We have experienced that 1 in 4 parts they have put into our machine have been bad. On occasion, the toner bottles come in and aren't recognized either. This is very common with the developer units too. Two32 hit the nail on the head with affecting production, staff morale, customer service, turnarounds and profit. I have had several people suggest to form a class action lawsuit with an attorney that has experience in similar issues. Thoughts? I hate the thought of even taking that kind of route, but if Ricoh won't stand behind the product, what choice to we all have other then take a huge loss and hope it does force us into Bankruptcy?

 

We have a small Canon 23ppm office copier that is 17 years old in our office. We use it daily - this little unit will print a solid and screens better then our Ricoh 751, which look strikingly similar to what you show above.

 

classycars, I have thought about asking this forum if there would be any interest in forming a Class Action Lawsuit. RICOH knows individually they would crush us. Even if they are (and they are) dead wrong, they would tie this up in court for years forcing us to spent so much many that it would probably force us to close our doors. Having said that, I believe attorneys take Class Action Lawsuits on a pro bono basis because these types of lawsuits are only filed against major corporations.... who have lots of money.... which attorneys like!! Question is, are there enough defendants with enough "damages" to warrant a Class Action Lawsuit? (I only read it quickly just now but according to Wikipedia there needs to be damages in excess of $5,000,000)

 

Calling Ricoh´s attention on the underperforming Pro c751 and 651 printers

I don´t know if the Class action Lawsuit is to protect just US territory customers from Ricoh in this case. I´ve read of problems In NY, Chicago Philadelphia, but also UK, and mine in Central America (Guatemala). Just to replace and take out and bring in an equivalent technology, each store (shop or printing facility) will spend above US$100k. Losses for the period we have run inefficiently (P&L) maybe a similar amount per business. The printing jobs we have not been able to take, due to the lack of reliability can be the same amount, and the attourney´s fees more than that.
Still we´ll need to wait a couple of months for 4 or 5 more of the 751´s and 651´s to start showing their attributes and the deceited customers will add up to the minimum requirement.
I think Ricoh should receive the machines back and reimburse before it really costs to them.
In the mean time there are some names I´ve found on internet, publicly listed as Legal for the corporation: Mark Hershey, Legal and Operation: Bill LaSalle; Phil Keogham UK CEO, Martin Brodigan Ricoh Americas Chariman and CEO. Maybe they will have a different way to see the risk and Ricoh´s problem solution than the one approach the field sales managers have taken.

Also there is the power of social networks (bigger than our forum) as youtube. I don´t know if you are familiar with a non attended complaint by United to a customer. United broke his guitar and didn´t want to take responsibility for its fault. The guitar owner posted in YouTube the little story made a song which had more than 12million visitors, now it is a case study in universities (You can see it in Youtube in the link www.UnitedbreaksGuitarsBook.com)

We´ll keep in touch