Purchasing Konica Minolta Bizhub C658 or C558

Discussion in 'Konica Minolta Color Laser Printers & Copiers' started by Thayanithi Kokulan, Aug 16, 2019.

  1. Thayanithi Kokulan

    Thayanithi Kokulan Member

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    Hi,

    We are offset printers and we are planning to get into digital with KM Colour Photocopier. We are planning to purchase either c658 or c558. Can anyone let me know whether this model has any issues and whether this model is okay to go with if we are entering into electrophotographic printing.
     
  2. jwheeler

    jwheeler Member

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    Neither one of those is a digital press meant for any real volume or quality of printing. Those are from the "office" line of Konica Minoltas. Great for printing emails and reports on a daily basis, but not production printing. They will not handle thick sheets, large solids, textured media, or glossy sheets on a regular basis. They are meant for running 20# bond.

    You should consider an AccurioPress C3070 or C3070L at the very least in their line-up. You should ask your sales rep to bring in the production specialist so he can evaluate what you're looking for. There are also lots of great paper feeding, color control, and finishing options available on the production presses that you can't get on the office line.

    Side note: the C558 and C658 are both the same machine, same frame, same software...the only difference is the speed (55 and 65ppm)
     
  3. Thayanithi Kokulan

    Thayanithi Kokulan Member

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    Hi,

    Thank you for the information shared but in the datasheet of Konica Minolta Bizhub C658 it says "Printable paper weight 52-300gsm".

    Please let me know whether this is true or not.

    I have attached the datasheet hereby
     

    Attached Files:

  4. jwheeler

    jwheeler Member

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    Just because the specs of a printer say it can handle up to 300gsm doesn’t mean it can do it consistently and reliably. It’s like having a cheap car with a speedometer that maxes out at 140mph. Sure, you can do that once in a while, but if you try it consistently, you’ll burn out the engine. But if you get a sports car that is built for that, you can do it more frequently without issue.

    Additionally, the c558/c658 cannot duplex that weight of paper, so you would have to print a 2 sided document in 2 separate passes. The production line can duplex in a single pass.

    Furthermore, if you ask for a demo and attempt to print on 300gsm with the proper settings, you will see it slows down incredibly. The production units will maintain a much higher speed.

    Just trying to save you some trouble here. The C658 may work okay for the first year, but you’ll regret it after more time passes. I used to sell digital printing equipment, and I would see this all the time. The customer would just see the specs of 300gsm and the salesman just wanted to close a deal (or knew you just didn’t want to pay for a production unit).

    This is not limited to Konica Minolta either. Xerox, Canon, and Ricoh also have office mfp lines that are meant for just that. Look on any of the manufacturers websites and you’ll see even they will categorize for office and production. There’s a good reason for it.
     
  5. Thayanithi Kokulan

    Thayanithi Kokulan Member

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    Hi,

    I understand your point of view.

    One of the main disadvantage or advantage of Konica Minolta that i see in my point of view is they are coming up with different new models of production digital press within 2 or 3 years.

    This can be seen in 2 different views, one is that digital printer is getting both updated and upgraded to reach the resolution that the offset printing provides and the other is that digital machine models are not stable.

    When comparing with Xerox or Canon Konica Minolta has different Range which makes think that Konica Minolta is not that much stable when comparing with Xerox or Canon because Xerox or Canon have fixed models and i think they are doing updates and upgrades with that available model, they are not all of a sudden getting rid of a particular model and coming up with new model.

    Because Bizhhub in Production range is now stopped and Now Accurio Range of Production printers are getting manufactured.

    Also i need Clarification whether Konica Minolta will supply consumables and spare parts for a particular model for next 5 years if they are announcing that they are stopping a particular model (This is what my local sales person told me).

    Also i need a clarification of within how many years the ROI of a production digital press of Konica Minolta should be achieved, because for offset printing and Post press machines We Consider within 5 years the ROI should be achieved.

    Also i need to know how many years a Konica minolta Accurio press 3080 will be able to provide print quality to acceptable level without causing any issue.
     
  6. jwheeler

    jwheeler Member

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    Hi Thayanithi,

    I think you have some misconceptions here that need some clarification. Konica Minolta is not the only one who is regularly changing their models. Xerox, for example has released 3 upgrades to their Versant line in the last 4 years. Canon just released a new C850 series. Ricoh just release new C7200 series, and so on. It's pretty standard for all of them to release a new model every 2-3 years or so. And this does not mean the previous models weren't stable or good quality, it usually has to do with new technologies such as handling longer sheets, thicker material, new finishers, higher speeds, higher resolutions, and so on.

    As for the Konica Minolta naming convention, they used to call off the their machines by Bizhub at the begining and then would have a suffix like Bizhub Pro, Bizhub Press. About 2-3 years ago, they just changed the name of the press series to AccurioPress. The bizhub office series was not replaced by the Accurio line, they are just different classes of digital copiers. The bizhub naming convention now only refers to the office copier line, while the Accuio naming convention refers only to the production line.

    As for supporting the current model(s), manufacturers are required to provide parts and service for any model for a minimum of 7 years from the last year it was sold. So if they are not coming out with a new unit for 2-3 years, they will be supporting the current model for 9-10 years. Most will exceed that, especially if that was a particularly popular unit.

    The ROI is up to your own business model. I've seen many customers have an ROI after only 2-3 years. There is no set standard for this. Also, most print shops do not purchase the equipment. Instead, they least it for 5 years so they can upgrade to the newest technology at the end of their lease.

    As for how many years the machine will print with good quality, my print shop has a Konica Minolta C8000 that is 5.5 years old and it's still printing beautifully. When I used to sell gear, I'd see shops that still had Konica Mionlta C6500's and C6501's that were over 10 years old printing with great quality. I found the same to be true for older Canon, Ricoh, and Xerox machines as well. They are very much like cars that if you just replace the main components such as the imaging unit, fusers, drums, etc, it will keep looking great.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2019
  7. Thayanithi Kokulan

    Thayanithi Kokulan Member

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    Hi,

    Thanks a lot for the information Shared.

    Can you let me know what is the main difference between Konica Minolta, Xerox and Canon print quality.

    Even though they apply electrophotography printing principle but their machine structure is different.

    Is there any difference in the printout put provided by each of the machine.

    Also why Konica Minolta is being using widely by most of the printers, Is it because the consumable and spare parts price is lesser that Xerox and Canon
     
  8. jwheeler

    jwheeler Member

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    Thayanithi, the quality question is going to be answered differently by everyone, because it is somewhat a matter of opinion. They all think their quality is the best. They will each talk about the resolution, the 8 bit or 10 bit technology, the lasers they use, the quality control they have in place, etc. Really, the best thing is to take the same set of files and your own media and do a demo on each of the machines you're considering. Do the demo in person, don't just send them your files. You want to see it produced live. If they do it without you present, they can make adjustments that you never know. If you use any specialty media, such as textured, synthetics, or pre die-cut, bring those and see how the press handles it. These days, I think they all print really well (as long as you're looking at the production line and not the office line).

    As for Konica becoming more widely used, I think there are a variety of reasons, and it probably varies depending on what part of the country/world you are in. I know here in Southern California, both Xerox and Ricoh have pulled direct sales out of the area and only rely on the dealers (unless you're a massive corporation or government entity). Many people don't trust dealerships as much as direct channel because they are not as stable, so that pushes them towards Konica and Canon. Between those two, Canon is usually higher priced across the board for equipment and service. Additionally, I think Konica has really improved their image and products in recent years. Their machines can compete with the rest of the bunch and they usually offer them at a lower price to win the business. I still think the others (Xerox, Canon, and Ricoh) make great machines and offer great service/support.
     
  9. Thayanithi Kokulan

    Thayanithi Kokulan Member

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    Hi, In my country too Konica has many installations comparing with Canon and Xerox and here there are 2 agents available and through them only most of them buy the machines. But Used Konica Minolta machines are also there in the market. I accept with your point Canon price for consumables are high and Currently we outsource our digital jobs to a press where they are using Konica Minolta Accurio press 3080P.

    So we are mostly towards planning to confirm Accurio Press 3080P. Canon and Xerox dealers are not that much to the level of customer service. In Accurio Press 3080P even they have improved in handling textured materials.

    One of the Challenge is the cost per sheet calculation given by the dealers. In the cost per sheet calculation they have just included Drum, Developer Set and Toner. They have not included Transfer belt, Fuser Roller , Belt and other components Charges. So i have request the price for the other components also.

    Also the CPC is done only based on 5% image coverage, so the counts/mileage high but as per my opinion it is difficult to calculate toner usage without going for a colour coverage analyser software but as per my inquiry it is at the moment available in European market it is at the moment not available for asian market for Konica Minolta.

    Also Normally in my country all the of them are mostly going with the flat rate for Any Artwork.

    So if you can give me your suggestion to over come these issues that will be a great help for me.
     
  10. jwheeler

    jwheeler Member

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    I'm not sure how to help you with this question. I have not heard of a dealer excluding certain components from the service contract. That must be something unique to your country. I would ask if they can provide a CPC (Cost per copy) with all components included. As for the 5% coverage, that is an unrealistic number these days with the artwork customers produce. I imagine that is an average they are putting on their documentation to cover themselves in case you seem to be ordering more toner than you should be for your volume. This helps protect them from people selling the toner online. And yes, a flat rate is standard here as well. A quick google search gave me this link to check your coverage: http://lab.dejaworks.com/ink-toner-consumption-using-calculator/
     
  11. Thayanithi Kokulan

    Thayanithi Kokulan Member

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    Hi, please check the attached CPC obtained from one of the dealer of Konica Minolta. Please let me know whether you could provide me a sample CPC that you have with you for your Konica Minolta with all the necessary consumable list included.

    I feel that there are issues with the CPC attached please express your suggestion.
     

    Attached Files:

  12. jwheeler

    jwheeler Member

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    I don't think this form is showing you what they will charge you as a CPC. I think they are presenting what the average cost per page will be if you buy all of the consumables yourself. However, they are basing this on only 5% coverage and I'm assuming on an A4 size since that's what all data is typically based on. This is unrealistic because most jobs will be more than 5% and you will most likely run on larger sheets. Of course, this depends on the type of work you do. An average CPC here in America can range from $0.035 to $0.045. However, this includes all labor, all parts, all consumables, and all sizes ranging from 5.5 in x 8.5 in to 13 in x 19 inches, and coverage amount doesn't matter. You don't have to buy anything or pay for any services outside of paying the CPC. If you have really high volume and buy one of the larger machines, some vendors will go down to a $0.03 CPC. I used Google to do a conversion, and it appears that 2 rupees is the same is $0.028 in US dollars.
     
  13. Thayanithi Kokulan

    Thayanithi Kokulan Member

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    Hi, Yes here in our country the CPC is provided for A4 only and also I checked the link you have share for Colour Coverage Analyser and i have uploaded some of my samples and took the screenshots and sent it to one of the agents and they have sent those samples to Konica Minolta Singapore. Also I came across the link of KM Colour Coverage Analyser. I think it is a good tool but the local agent told me that it is not currently available for the Asian region. This is the link https://www.konicaminolta.eu/eu-en/software/user-cost-management/colour-coverage-analyser

    I spoke to 2 agents and one of them is having a click charges and other agent doesn't. Both of them says that they will include only Drum, Developer and Toner only in the CPC and they mentioned that they will not include other consumables or parts in the CPC. Even for the click charges that applies only to Drum, Developer and Toner only, the consumables or parts should be purchased by the KM Machine Enduser.

    Because as there are certain dark areas exist in the CPC it is difficult to go to the investment because almost all the other brands like Canon, Xerox in my country do not provide a full CPC with all the consumables included they just mention only the Drum, Developer and Toner only. I think I must check with one of the KM Users in India. Even i am going ask for the complete CPC from the local Agent. Please let me know your suggestions
     
  14. jwheeler

    jwheeler Member

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    I think you're on the right path to ask them for a CPC which includes all parts, labor, and consumables. If they won't, that might just be the standard in your country and you just have to decide if it works for you or not. I know there are some print shops here that decided not to get any sort of service contract and just pay for everything on their own and they feel like they are making out better than if they had a CPC. I think that depends on the type of work you do. If you will be doing heavy card stock regularly, and lots of coverage, you're going to wear down components more than someone who is just printing basic forms and flyers on thinner stocks. With an all inclusive CPC, at least you know your cost is a constant variable that you can work with to calculate how much to charge your end client. When you have to worry about buying certain parts at random times, then it becomes a bit more difficult. It might be best to ask a few local print shops how it's working for them.
     
  15. Thayanithi Kokulan

    Thayanithi Kokulan Member

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    There are 2 agents in our country for Konica Minolta and one company is interested to work with click charges and they are not willing to share the information of the list of consumables with the pass count and selling price. They are just like forcing to go for click charges. The problem in click charges is there is a minimum count that you should achieve for a particular period of month that is 10,000 A4 and whether i print that count or not i must pay for it, but i accept this charge includes spare part replace, consumable, service charge etc.

    But i am not sure whether this model will work for me because even though we are offset printer we are new startup for Electrophotography printing so achieving this count is a win or lose situation. So we are probably thinking going with the other agent where they are interested to go with any option click charges and normal method. I spoke to one of their end user he mentioned that sticker paper and 80 gsm art paper will cause replacement of transfer belt replacement.

    One clarification that i need to know with regard to click charge is whether the CPC for any design file is $0.035 to $0.045. Because in my country Click Charge for KM is 6.5 LKR to 4.9 LKR (They say that this is for 30% image coverage). So in that case shall we consider for any print that we print with 30% image coverage is 6.5 LKR to 4.9 LKR. But certainly we cannot be sure whether we will get 30% image coverage all the time. I checked some of my design files which i am like getting 30 - 50+ image coverage i have attached those files.

    I am not sure whether this click charge is acting like a bank system. Like bank will get money from the people who have money and put it on investment or lend loan and then share the profit.
     

    Attached Files:


  16. jwheeler

    jwheeler Member

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    In the USA, the click charge is for any size print, with any amount of coverage.
     
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