POLAR EMC 92 MONITOR error SCAN REFERENCE POINT

Discussion in 'Cutters and Trimmers' started by aqazi81, Sep 3, 2014.

  1. aqazi81

    aqazi81 Senior Member

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    Can anyone help me, polar emc 92 monitor showing error SCAN REFERENCE POINT. we have to manually move the back gauge forwards and backwards and the problem goes away...but it comes back again and again....any help would be much appreciated.
     
  2. Mathew

    Mathew Senior Member

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    Hi
    This problem usually appears while the back gauge is moving forward or backward and reference point is not recognized by the controler.
    Do the followings:
    1-Turn off the machine while you are moving the backgauge forward or backward
    2-Turn it ON and you will see the message SCAN REFERNCE POINT, then move the backgauge by handle, it will find the reference point again.

    If the problem is still exsisting, you need to open the measuring unit underneath of the table, open it carefuly and clean the ruller and the scanner mirrors. Just use IPA to clean the parts.

    Good luck
     
  3. Coloured paper

    Coloured paper Senior Member

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    Hi

    If you have the massage “SCAN REFERENCE POSITION” you do not need to turn the machine off while you are moving the backgauge forward or backward. You are already in the scanning mode.
    And please don’t work with the measurement system underneath the rear table. This would give you other error massages.

    If you have the massage “SCAN REFERENCE POSITION” you do not really have an error. The machine will work perfect after scanning the reference position. If you follow the instruction the machine works normal.
    The massage “SCAN REFERENCE POSITION” appears if the machine could not store the last information’s in the moment the machine was switched off. Every time you switch the machine on, the machine has to learn several parameters.
    The reason why the machine cannot store the last information’s is a little battery. This battery has no more power. The battery can be replaced by a local electrician. If you open the front cover underneath the front table you see one electronic board with four sockets and just one plug. This is the board CP.

    To change the battery you do the following steps.
    Switch the machine off. Take the board CP out. Do not place the CP board on the iron table. Put the board on paper and change the battery. Put the CP board back into the machine. Get the plug (from the front) into its socket. Switch the machine on and check all the functions. THe machine will start one mor time with "SCAN REFERENCE POSITION".

    Until you have a new battery you can use the machine.

    There is another problem in your machine. You cannot use a program. If you like to store a measurement you get the error massage “MEMORY BANK FAULT: DELETE 240”. If the battery is replaced I can tell how to initialize the two memory banks. This is easy as well.

    Good luck

    Coloured paper
     
  4. aqazi81

    aqazi81 Senior Member

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    Thank you guys for your quick response....I"ll check the battery first then I"ll move to other steps... you mentioned that programs are not working......but I can use or store a program.....
     
  5. Coloured paper

    Coloured paper Senior Member

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    Hi!
    The battery needs more than 3 Volt d. c.
    Regarding the program I am maybe wrong. Shame over me. I should have asked you how old the machine is. There are two generations. Obviously you have the older version with a memory bank on the board PI, which you can exchange. This memory bank has its own battery. Maybe I am getting older.
    You will see

    Good luck

    Coloured paper
     
  6. alexmark73

    alexmark73 Member

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    Memory bank fault: Delete 240

    Dear Colored Paper,
    thanks for your support.
    I heave the some problem on a Polar 155 ED.
    When I turn on the machine I have the message "Scan Reference Position".
    As you suggested I changed the battery on the CP board.
    After this step I lost all the info stored into the memory and if I try to store info I receive the message "Memory bank Fault: Delete 240".

    Can you help me to initialize the two memory banks?

    I need to store all the info into the Green Window that appear if you star the system without switching on the motor. Can you give me some info?

    Many thanks in advance for your support.

    Alexmark73
     

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  7. Coloured paper

    Coloured paper Senior Member

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    Hi Alexmark!

    If you get (because of an empty battery!) after switching on the machine always the message “Scan reference point”, the program information are mostly gone any way. The battery supplies the voltage to keep the information’s.
    If you change the battery the memory bank has to be initialized. Without initialization you get the error message ERRORE MEMORIA: CANCELLARE 240, because the main computer is not able to read the memory banks. In your case the memory is not broken. You have two memory banks (A and B). The procedure to initialize both memory banks is easy. The official service information says:
    Select the program survey first. Then press the „Delete“ and „Enter“ keys one after the other (or press „Delete“, “1”, “-“, “9”, “9” and „Enter“). The same procedure is carried out after the second memory area has been selected, if applicable.
    After this memory initialization has been carried out, customer-specific adjustments should be performed, if necessary, according to the original state. This means you correct all presettings If you want. Example “language”, “time between clamping and cutting” and much much more. There are a lot of presetting’s possible. The operating manual tells you a bit about this. If you have questions, let me know.
    I don’t understand what you mean with “green window”. If you start the machine, you should not have or see any green window. If you select the “Service menu” you get a green window called machine nameplate. The information’s in this window are not important for the machine functions. It is just information. The service engineer who installs the machine usually writes down the actual power supply, the agency name, the machine configuration, etc. If these information’s are not given the machine works normal.

    You have a different problem. Changing the battery was probably not necessary. The error message “Scan reference position” was NOT given because of an empty battery. In your case the error message “Scan reference position” was just a reaction of a different problem.
    What was the first problem? Was it “NESSUN IMPULSO PUNTO RIFERIM. 653“? Can you do a reference run? Do you know what “FUNZIONAMENTOEMERGENZA” means and do you know how to it?

    Best regards
    Coloured paper
     
  8. alexmark73

    alexmark73 Member

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    Hi Coloured Paper,
    many thanks for your reply.

    I think changing the battery was not necessary because it is 3,6 V but anyway I changed it.... As you wrote the first problem was "NESSUN IMPULSO PUNTO RIFERIMENTO 653". Can you help me? I need to understand how I can solve this problem... I didn't initialize the memory banks. I think I'll do it today evening!!!

    I hope you can reply in the evening so I can solve also the other problem...

    With all the best
    Alexmark
     
  9. Coloured paper

    Coloured paper Senior Member

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    Hi Alexmark!

    Fixing 653 is not so easy. I cannot tell you everything in one sentence. I have to make a real instruction with many pages and pictures for you. And today I have to work.
    As well I need an Email address to send you the instruction and I have to know which experience level you have. Do you know the service menu in a Polar cutter?
    You have to check the proximity switch B341, the encoder, both together and an adjustment for B341 has to be made.
    If you know how the service menu works, you to machine data and read out the reference point information. You wright down the middle number (of the three), you go back to the program data, position the backgauge to this position and check if the switching flag is really in front of the proximity switch B341. If not, you change it.
    This would be the first step to do. But probably this is instruction is much too complicated and I believe you do not have any information’s for the reference point in the service menu anyway.
    The best way would be slowly and step by step.

    Let’s start with you experience and the Email address first.

    Best regards
    Coloured paper
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2015
  10. Oleh

    Oleh Member

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    You fixed the problem ? It can be wear as the electrical and mechanical parts of the machine . If you wish I can explain the problem.
     
  11. alexmark73

    alexmark73 Member

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    Many thanks for your reply.
    My mail address is giuseppealessandrorusso@gmail.com

    I'm a service engineer on Ctp system and I worked with collating systems but I never work on a cutting machine.

    If you can share with me some info it will be very appreciated.

    With all the best
    Alexmark
     
  12. alexmark73

    alexmark73 Member

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    I didn't fix the problem.
    All support will be very appreciated.

    With all the best
    Alexmark
     
  13. Coloured paper

    Coloured paper Senior Member

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    Hi Alexmark!

    You got mail!
    Let me know if it worked out or not.

    Good luck
    Coloured paper
     
  14. Hardesty Press

    Hardesty Press New Member

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    I am having problem with my 92 EMC. I am getting programming (Ent) Cut circuit Interupt) and can do nothing, no clamp, no manual operation. Just a beed and nothing is working on the cutter.
     
  15. petermif

    petermif Member

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    Hi guys,
    We have a problem with our Polar 92 EM-MONITOR (Nr:6011858). Machine was bought almost new in the UK and has FMM.
    27 Nov 18: machine working all day perfectly. At 5pm machine froze and wouldn't do anything. Power off and on again and we got a screen full of + signs and cursor flashing at top left corner and won't boot any further.
    28 Nov: Called POLAR service in Malta but being christmas period techs were too busy and we were put on a wait list :(
    29 Nov: Being a small press we couldn't wait and started taking all our cutting to an nearby press who kindly let us use their machine between 6am - 7am before they started work.....very nice of them but it was killing us.
    3 Dec: Polar tech turns up just to have a look and frankly hasn't got a clue....Power supplies OK and all seems good so he emails Polar in Germany and they say CP1 board needs to be replaced.
    Cost of CP1 is 4680 euros and if you return damaged board you MAY get some credit back if board is repairable!!. We order CP1 board and it arrives 3 days later.
    7 Dec: Polar deliver CP1 board and tech calls me up to say I can install it myself (I'm an electrical engineer, worked with Philips Medical Systems 3 years & Kodak for 12 years)
    I install CP1 board and machine seems to work Hallelujah!!! BUT machine works only manually...all automatic cutting does not function, machine won't step through program but stops at first step or sometimes 2nd step. Cancelling auto cutting returns machine to manual cut and machine is ok....you can punch in size and machine moves to correct size and if you press cut buttons blade comes down and cycles correctly. After a few cuts machine keybpard amd backgauge sometimes freezes, wont accept input from keyboard and seems to be waiting for something but pressing cut buttons always works; after a few blank cuts the machine accepts input from keyboard and all seems ok. Call POLAR tech again...still to busy.....Christmas work :(
    10 Dec: I dive in under machine and notice that switch S390 (operated by foot pedal) is damaged; actual switch ok but mounting to machine frame is broken and doesn't always make positive action. Replaced switch (took 3 days to arrive from Germany)....no change to machine!!! Call Polar again!!! Polar techs call back and say sorry..we don't have much experience on this machine and feel we cannot be effective....(translation) ...you're on you own!!! Christmas is approaching and so is our shutdown and we're down to manual cutting only at least. Polar Germany (through their reps here by email) start asking us to check power supplies, clamp proximity sensor, safety bolt sensors, cut switches at table etc.....the list goes on.

    We now start an email saga through their representatives in here in Malta. They suggest that the problem must be the SK circuit board and suggest we replace this board....cost is 2860 euros!! We eventually order this board and it arrives in January (we have shutdown for christmas holidays). We replace the SK board and NOTHING CHANGES!!!! We notice that when we try auto cutting the machine random will sometimes steps through the program and very rarely even complete it, or stop at the first step. We also notice that in auto cutting, when the knife has completed a cycle and won't advance to the next step the monitor displays "AUTOMATIC KNIFE ACTIVE" even though the knife is actually home. We suspect the switches at the cams on the back and check them and discover that one pair of contacts on S22c has a high resistance, S22a & S22b are fine and the replacement cost of these 2 switches, a mysterious box and the wiring cost 1021 euros....too expensive for a trial and error basis replacement.
    More emails to & from Polar and they are now saying "we reach the end of email support. 2 options remain. Send all the electronics (the whole electrical works) + keyboard and computer and power relays / contactors to POLAR in Germany and they will test it OR have all parts shipped to Malta and they'll send a Polar tech here.....cost unknown but I can imagine!!!!

    SO this is my situation at the moment:
    The guillotine works in manual mode but will sometimes refuse input from the keyboard (a few blank cuts solves this)
    The machine moves perfectly to any size (i reason that the LMS and the PI board and the MCM units are fine)
    The guillotine stores and recalls programs OK, will step through a program (backgauge only) and move correctly but sometimes stops!
    The machine wants to SCAN REFERENCE POINT very FREQUENTLY (5 or 5 time a day in the morning and it gets better in the afternoon!!!)
    When we switch on the air on the table the monitor blanks momentarily but comes back ok and only the first time!! (implies a power supply issue I think)
    When we had the MCM unit out we noticed that of the 6 snubbers (RC networks) that should be in circuit only 2 are physically there (but its been like this for years!)
    Power supplies seem ok (using a Fluke multimeter) I haven't put a scope on them yet.....getting there!!

    We're now in February, very busy and this is getting very frustrating and expensive.

    I would appreciate any help / suggestions.

    Thank you,
    Peter (peter@proprintmalta.com Mobile: +356 99475840)
     
  16. CHOCK

    CHOCK Senior Member

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    Dear Peter:
    Hope you are well.
    I was reading your problem , now is frustating.
    You indicated that you measure the power supply. However when the people measure this, do not know that tolerance in power supply is very Critica and Most of cause failure in electronic equipment(from my own experience and other engineer colleagues) in troubleshooting.
    1) +5 Vdc Tolerance: 5.08-5.12 if this out of this parameter Replace or repair.
    2) +12Vdc Tolerance:11.4-12.6 if this out of this parameter Replace or repair.
    3) +24Vdc Tolerance:23.7+24.6 if this out of this parameter Replace or repair.
    4) If there are o.k please follow to the Electronic Board Cpu or MicroP.
    5) Reset the small switch S1, this switch reset the Cpu or MicroP, some LED will be light up, indicating that Computer or Cpu or MicroP is working.!
    6)If this is o.k Please test the Lithium Battery for 3.5Vdc, this battery support all RAM Information data variable of the paper cutter( such as:brake afterrun, last program, or step number,cut counter, etc) of course the program entered by the operator.
    Let me know any question, please.
    Blessing
    superchock@yandex.com
    Mobile+WhatsApp:+505 8861 1441
     
  17. petermif

    petermif Member

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    Hi Ernesto,
    Thank you very much for your feedback. I understand exactly what you mean by power supply voltages being critical.

    Here are my readings
    1) +5 Vdc Tolerance: 5.08-5.12 mine is 5.095v
    2) +12Vdc Tolerance:11.4-12.6 mine is 11.950v
    3) +24Vdc Tolerance:23.7+24.6 mine is 23.970v

    I'm not sure what you mean by number 4. Do you want me to measure the supply on the microprocessor board? If so there is no easy access and since we have a brand new circuit board fitted it should be OK.

    Also CP1 is a new circuit board (we replaced this in December) the battery should be fine too and on the new CP1 circuit board S1 the RESET button no longer exists and the LED is removed too!!
    I know that if the battery is low then the memory wont work well but we get SCAN REFERENCE POINT errors very frequently and I suspect its not battery related but perhaps some other factor causing this.

    Another point we noticed is that the first time S87 is activated (this is the switch under the air table to activate the solenoid Y94a ) the monitor screen blanks out momentarily but returns to normal after 1 second!!! The only way theses are possibly connected is through the power supply!!! Any ideas here.

    Thanks,
    Peter
     
  18. CHOCK

    CHOCK Senior Member

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    Hi Peter:
    Good day in your country.
    Please review the email.
    However adjust the primary input of Trafo, is the voltage is low, you can do it by the jumper to 260 for to avoid trouble free Jitlers.
    and see for 2) Colder+Dry Joint in all Electronic Boards,with Reheating unit Rework cell Phones, very Powerful, for fix it.
    Blessing
    superchock@yandex.com
    Mobile+WhatsApp:+505 8861 1441
     
  19. petermif

    petermif Member

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    Thank you for your input. I intend to pull out the electronics over the weekend and check for this problem as the erratic nature of the problem suggests that it maybe something like a Dry joint.... I'll keep you informed. Thanks for your help.
    Peter
     

  20. CHOCK

    CHOCK Senior Member

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