Plate Blinding on Lithrone

Discussion in 'Komori Printing Presses' started by alibryan, May 8, 2014.

  1. emet

    emet Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2015
    Messages:
    57
    Location:
    Devon, United Kingdom
    Very interesting. We have an old Harris V15A web press that has copper rollers. Is this a temporary thing or does it last for a while. Also what kind of solution do you use? Is it one for electroplating? Can you point me in the right direction?
     
  2. CSF

    CSF Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2019
    Messages:
    38
    Location:
    Chicago
    emet,
    you may wish to contact Jon Mather at PressPal in Manchester. https://press-pal.co.uk/
    He sells an astonishing roller cleaner called Calcium Slayer & Flush. Many Komori, Mitsu and Harris models w/copper have benefitted from its use. Calcium is a major contributor to plate blinding. Photos are of a Harris in Milwaukee WI USA that sure seemed to benefit from using the product on their copper (and rubber) rollers. All the best.
    . COP1.jpg COP2.jpg COP3.jpg
     
  3. emet

    emet Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2015
    Messages:
    57
    Location:
    Devon, United Kingdom
    I actually have some calcium slayer. I don't know how to use it without a washup blade which I don't have. We just strip what is on the rollers off onto the paper.
    Also I am in North Carolina right now.
    If you think I could use that stuff without washup blades, I would be happy to hear.
     
  4. CSF

    CSF Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2019
    Messages:
    38
    Location:
    Chicago
    It's tricky without the blade. Has been done, though. Will get with my associate who has been a part of a couple demos on bladeless presses. I'll get you some feedback in the next day or so. Thanks for the feedback.
     
  5. CSF

    CSF Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2019
    Messages:
    38
    Location:
    Chicago
    emet,
    The lack of wash-up blades sure boggles me. I thought it was an issue that only plagued the states ! Anyway...........

    We have a few customers using Calcium Slayer and Flush without wash up blades. You will not get the full results intended but it will help.
    First make sure you have old plates in at the end of a job. The widest paper you run in the press will help. Follow direction on the bottles step 1 and 2. Turn Ink fountain roller and ductor rollers off and start press up and wash with roller wash out onto the web.
    I also have a customer that just follows directions and sprays roller wash and water into the press with impressions on and lets it all run under the press.
    No easy answers without the correct set up. Any more questions, just ask
     
  6. emet

    emet Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2015
    Messages:
    57
    Location:
    Devon, United Kingdom
    We will give it a try. By the way I am in the states so don't be boggled by our lack of wash up blades.
     
  7. CSF

    CSF Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2019
    Messages:
    38
    Location:
    Chicago
    emet, please let me know how it goes after you try it. Thanks
     
  8. turbotom1052

    turbotom1052 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2008
    Messages:
    889
    Location:
    Vermont
    Who is the plate manufacturer? How are they with changing their chemistry in their plate processor? Are you just rolling up the freshly hung plates, or are you wiping them down before starting up? Ive found that in many cases once blinding begins you must not allow the plates to sit for more than a couple of minutes of down time.
     
  9. turbotom1052

    turbotom1052 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2008
    Messages:
    889
    Location:
    Vermont
    Ali,
    this does sound a lot like a calcium problem!!! I try really hard not to endorse any particular products here, but in this case I must say that when it comes to calcium removal NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING does a better job than the Bottcher paste. But even the Bottcher paste will not work if the rollers have been let go for too long. In that case nothing shy of a removal of all rollers from the press ,and hand scrubbing will get the job done. Once you've got them completely decalcified, then make a habit of at least weekly Bottcher application with a thorough rinsing with hot water to get all of the Bottcher residue off.
     
  10. alibryan

    alibryan Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 2014
    Messages:
    172
    Location:
    Pacific NW
    ^ Yes, or something very similar ^
    In my opinion, operator maintenance habits ultimately end up being the solution.

    I started this thread over 7 years ago and it was this very issue that brought me into this forum to begin with. I was having major calcification on my Magenta and Cyan units that would lead to unmanageable copper roller stripping and eventual plate blinding. Sometimes this would happen before I could even print 1,000 sheets. I finally got to the point where I was prepared to try some very unorthodox ideas, including using copper oxidizing solution in my roller trains (and a couple of other crazy ideas I’d heard from others), to try and solve this issue. Luckily, before I ended up doing any of that, I switched to a different wash up routine using Böttcher Febo Clean and Böttcher Calcium Fix, and continued to do it. It did take a little while to notice a difference but eventually, my problems finally started to go away.

    I’ve since made that routine to where it works fantastic for me, and I’ve tried to use it at other shops I’ve worked at as well (whenever possible). Not surprisingly though, everyone has their own understanding and perspective, so I just end up trying to do whatever I can, wherever I can do it. The nice thing about experience is, you don’t always have to go looking for affirmation or validation from others because you already know when something works.
     
  11. CSF

    CSF Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2019
    Messages:
    38
    Location:
    Chicago
    Calcium is a pressroom menace and the majority of shops are battling it.
    I vehemently disagree that the Bottcher products are the best way to deal with calcium contamination within the ink roller train.
     
  12. turbotom1052

    turbotom1052 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2008
    Messages:
    889
    Location:
    Vermont
    lemme guess... you sell something else to do the job???
     
  13. alibryan

    alibryan Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 2014
    Messages:
    172
    Location:
    Pacific NW
    I’m not trying to promote any company’s products here as I personally don’t have anything to gain by doing that. And I also don’t have any reason to doubt that there may be more than one product out there that actually works.
     
  14. CSF

    CSF Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2019
    Messages:
    38
    Location:
    Chicago
    Turbotom,
    I do sell a product that I sincerely feel is more effective. I also sell the Bottcher products, as well as those by other highly regarded manufacturers. The Bottcher products are good products, I will not deny that, but when you stated "NOTHING does a better job", I , based on my experiences and head-to-head comparisons, respectfully disagree.
     
  15. turbotom1052

    turbotom1052 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2008
    Messages:
    889
    Location:
    Vermont
    Are your comparisons being done by you personally, as you run the press day in and day out, or are you relating what you've heard from people that you've either sold or given samples to? Perhaps I misspoke when I said in absolute terms that there is no better product, especially since Ive been retired for a number of years, and there could very well be something new out there. But let me amend what I said with this. If Bottcher calcium fix paste cant get the job done then you will most likely need to pull your rollers out and scrub them by hand.
     
  16. CSF

    CSF Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2019
    Messages:
    38
    Location:
    Chicago
    I don't run a press, so I do not possess your knowledge or experience firsthand. The man who helped me create our product ran webs for 20+ years. Pressroom gifted. I do demos, though, and go with dealers to their accounts. I get on press and see for myself, as well as the feedback from dealers and the end users. While not press savvy, I have been selling pressroom chemistry for the last 33 years with the same company. Have learned a lot, but will never pretend to be in your league or Alibryan's. But when a roller cleaner can lower durometer as much as 10 points after a cleaning, or in the case of an SM102 just 2 weeks ago, lower water by 49 points, it is a product to be reckoned with, or at least learned about. Scrub rollers ? No need, possibly allowing for extreme cases. Did a demo on a Sanden web a while back. Filthy press. Rock hard rollers. Ink, calcium and paper just filling the rollers. The pressman had a broom stick with a scrub brush taped to it. A Scotchbrite pad was fastened to the scrub brush. I had no idea what is for, so I asked. He said it was to scrub the rollers by hand. Sometimes on the fly, sometimes by pulling them. We just finished the third application, when I heard someone shout, "Heads up !". I turned and saw the broom contraption whizz by me. The pressman said, "I won't need it anymore". Info is out there on the web, LinkedIn, etc. for those who wish to learn more. If not, well that's fine too. Their loss. I just believe Calcium Slayer & Flush is a product that can really help and I believe that is the reason these forums exist.
     
  17. alibryan

    alibryan Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 2014
    Messages:
    172
    Location:
    Pacific NW
    If given a choice, I would rather choose the side of regular maintenance over trying to fix something after extreme laziness, or neglect. A good example of that might be when doing a scheduled two year complete roller swap out, I noticed that the shore hardness of the old rollers coming out, was almost the exact same as the new ones going in. I almost couldn’t believe that when I saw it, but I did understand what it meant. It was simply from using a well known product in a regular roller maintenance routine - basically from installation to replacement. As an operator, once you’ve seen something like that you kind of stop worrying about finding any other products that might be available because it doesn’t really matter anymore. What you’re currently doing is as good as it gets.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2021 at 7:32 AM
    turbotom1052 likes this.
  18. CSF

    CSF Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2019
    Messages:
    38
    Location:
    Chicago
    Alibryan is spot on folks. Regular and preventative maintenance is best, be it rollers or your car. Don’t let calcium or any other issue get out of hand. Find the time and follow a regular maintenance plan. Quality printing is hard enough, don’t make it harder than needed.
     

  19. turbotom1052

    turbotom1052 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2008
    Messages:
    889
    Location:
    Vermont
    There is a product thats been in existence since letterpress days that does wonders for deep cleaning. Its called Putz Pomade and its a mildly abrasive burnt orange colored paste. I would only recommend it for a once or twice a month deep cleaning, because of its abrasive properties, but used along with a regular routing of calcium rinses, you should be able to maintain your roller train in tip top condition. The key to using the putz pomade is to be sure all traces of it comes out of the rollers after using it. This may require you to tap on something very high tack like water repellant varnish, or binding varnish to pull all the Putz Pomade out. This might require more than one rinse.
     

Loading...