New KBA Rapida 105 (2012) vs Used Heidelberg SM CD 102 or XL 105 (pre/post Drupa2008)

[PedroLlama]

Hello everybody!

One of our customers is looking for a 5 colors B1 machine. He already received a firm offer from KBA in Germany for a brand new KBA Rapida 105-5 (2012). I'm not sure if that 2012 will come with new advantages since this is a DRUPA year, but still it is a very competitive machine.

We're trying to convince him on considering a "like new" 2nd hand equipment. I already found some very interesting options in the market, but still struggling to convince our customer.

We are basically offering him the following 4 options:

- Heidelberg SM CD 102 (pre DRUPA 2008) (2005-2007, even 2008)
- Heidelberg SM CD 102 (post DRUPA 2008)
- Heidelberg XL 105-5 (pre DRUPA 2008) (2005-2007)
- Heidelberg XL 105-5 (post DRUPA 2008)

Of course, each option differs in term of equipment capabilities, technological advances and, most evidently, on price (which is one key factor in this deal).

Since we're competing with a new equipment proposal, our offer has to be very strong and attractive in terms of post sale service. Our customer is requiring us to include commissioning (Professional installation, Operators training & Mechanical / Electrical warranty).

What can you comment? Any suggestion on how we may approach the customer? How must we explain the real advantages and differences between both options (new and used)? What about the differences between the available options within used equipment?

If I was buying, I would go eyes closed with Heidelberg (due to its strong presence in Mexico and his service and parts assistance). KBA is small and recent here and may be a disadvantage in terms of service. But it all ends up to our customer final decision.

It's quite a challenge.

Note: Exheidmech, The Heidelberg Guy, Turbotom1052, LLS northwest UK, Paul Cavanaugh, Rossio, rolandman, Meny ... and all of you guys with tons of experience. Hope you can help us. Any suggestion is welcome.

Best regards,

Pedro Llama Esteinou


Vision Grafica Internacional, S.A. de C.V.
skype: pedro.llama.esteinou
webpage: www.visiongrafica.net
phone number: +52 222 7500934


p.s. I'm new at the forum, so I basically ignore how contact information can be shared. If you want to contact me or feel you can work together with us in this (or other projects going on), feel free to contact me or give me your e-mail and I'll write you back immediately.

 

[PedroLlama]

Just to clarify ...

We are intentionally omitting other brands. Here are our reasons:

Komori (is represented here in Mexico by a distributor, but still no direct presence, so service is not as good as it should). manroland (with its obvious problems, it is not a safe choice right now; uncertainty is killing the bussiness options for them).
Mitsubishi (have not found many interesting options within the market and, most of all, I ignore their main features, so I cannot explain it)

Perhaps we may consider some of them, but by now, the main focus is on KBA vs. Heidelberg

 

[Meny]

I will try and answer you with my opinion as clear as i can in little words as possible and without getting anyone angry

In general , the near years will move the market on printing presses to a position of one japan made press and one German made press.
This is the opinion of most analists around the world market.
2 of te jap makes will be out of the market , and 2 of the german too.

The trens is that Komori will be the Japan made brand to stay as it is the strongest .
The trend is that Heidelberg will be the German make to stay afloat.

Roland are in Big problems and it looks as if the end of the road fpor them is here.
KBA are in deap sht too for years , and i can assume in 2-3 years (and without presence at Drupa) they will be out of the market too.

Mitsubishi are half way out by now and Ruobi are not yet realy in the BIG PRESS market , so i assume they will not be the onse to rull the next 10 years in printing.

So we are left with the big H and the big K.

KBA ? For central America ? I would jump off a high roof before i do that.
KBA are hard to start with and it takes time to get them going. I fail to believe you will get good service & backup to get it running well before the buyer looses all his hair and money.

I would say , that the best press on the world market today as for cost / effective terms is clearly the Komori brand , but with no service available , i would fund it hard to recommend. (but i think that if Komori are addressed the right way and the terms of service & support are clear to all sides , it would still be the best choice)

So if the best is rulled out , and i am not sure it should be so , then the 2nd best is clearly Heidelberg.

In my opinion based on my 25 years in this field , a second hand Heidekberg , well tested and correctly installed by the right tech people , will be faster to start making money and way cheaper to keep - it will also cost way less then a new KBA.

The new KBA will take long to start making money as they need tome to get used to the "air" , and have lot's of starting issues , and it will cost more to keep too.

SO to make the story short - I would not rull out Komori so fast as i know them well and i thinbk you can get a very good result for your money (customer's money) , but if having on the table only the 2 brands i/e/ KBA & HEidelberg , i would clearly vote for the used HD.

If you need some good HD presses to offer - i have 2 excellent presses to choose from at very good rates and available now.
I also have a very nice as new KBA (bot my recomendation as above) for a very very low price - and the price reflects the trust of the public !!!!!

Feel free to call me have you any need to ask more.

Good luck

Meny

 

[PedroLlama]

I appreciate your comments and I will certainly discard if there's a chance to find a suitable Komori (and arrange and guarantee proper post sale service).

In the meantime, used Heidelberg vs. KBA new? I'm still hesitating on which model to offer. SM CD or XL? Pre Drupa or Post Drupa?

Of course, I'm taking in consideration that equipment must be in excellent running conditions, that from unloading until installation must be made by professionals only. And most important, I will try to reach Heidelberg Mexico (once a deal may be closed) and ask them for a chance to work together. Perhaps they can offer us some post sale service (at a cost and under certain conditions, for sure). Or at least, they can offer us some software aids such as Prinect products to increase productivity and correct business management. Paul Cavanaugh, being you an actual Heidelberger, what can you tell me? Do you think that way of working may function? Do you think Heidelberg may accept to integrate in this business on that terms?

At last, Meny, I'm new at the forum and I do not know how to obtain your personal information. How can I reach you? I want to be informed about the 3 options you told me. Could you please send me an e-mail with complete information?

Thanks for the feedback!

 

[Paul Cavanaugh]

PedroLlama,

What I am about to say is not only because I work for Heidelberg. I have been in the industry for 33 years and have not only seen many types of printing presses but have also ran quite a few before going to the service side for Heidelberg.

Of the machines you have mentioned, my favorite, hands down, is the XL105. It is a technological piece of wonder. Before Heidelberg built this machine, customers, press operators and service personnel were given a wish list of the things they would like to see on a press if they could have it. The XL105 was the result of those interviews.

It is a departure from the SM line of equipment in its design. A majority the customers who own these machines run them at 18,000 iph and ask us if we can make it go faster. Parts of the machine, like the delivery gripper bars, were tested in a wind tunnel in an effort to cut down on turbulence. In my opinion it is the Enzo Ferrari of the sheetfed equipment Heidelberg has to offer.

That being said the CD and the SM machines are also fully capable of producing quality products at high production levels. The real goal is to match the equipment to your customer's actual needs. Why buy the Ferrari when a Porsche will do?

Heidelberg is not going anywhere and we will be able to support the equipment for your customer at their request long after it has been installed.

I will see what I can do about your request for assistance and get back with you shortly.

 

[PedroLlama]

Dear Paul,

Thank you very much for your kind reply. I totally agree. In my personal opinion, Heidelberg XL model is, by far, the best press available in the market at the moment.

Still, in this particular case, our project is complicated. We are, indeed, comparing an Enzo Ferrari (XL) with a standard BMW (KBA Ra 2012). No offenses taken, hahahaha, both are excellent brands. That's not my point.

What I'm trying to say is that, given the fact that my customer has already been offered a new 2012 KBA Rapida 105-5 for 1.1 million EUR (including full commissioning, or at least that's what I've been told), the main challenge is to offer him the best equipment possible for a lower investment.

I've made quite a research within our worldwide database of dealers. I've found various great options with prices attractive enough to let us offer him what he's looking. I even think that post sale service (professional installation, training and, most of all, guarantee) is a reachable objective. We have the capabilities and the contacts to do it.

But, my main concern is how to convince my customer (specially, the capital partner, the one who's putting the money) that Heidelberg is miles ahead of KBA?

What can Heidelberg SM CD can do that KBA Rapida cannot do? Even more for Heidelberg XL vs. KBA Rapida? Even with the handicap that they're 2007-2008 models (depending on what we choose to offer: Pre DRUPA or Post DRUPA)

What can you guys tell me on specific advantages from these presses?

 

[Meny]

As i wrote before , Heidelberg are here to stay - no offence.
i have been a HD man for 15 year , thinking that the world was Heidelberg or junk (for all the rest) until i came accross the Komori brand and "converted" .

Any way , if you take a Heidelberg it is a safe choice for sure , and this is one of the HD biggest advantages - you can always find someone to take your used HD press no matter how old , and sometimes you get more then you paid for it too!

Now you can not say the same on a KBA - buy in new for 1.1 mil , and try selling it in 2 months..... it is hell to sell and when you get the one to take your press you get sooooo very little for it you will ever be sorry you paid for it at the start line.

Is KBA a bad press ? NOT AT ALL , it is a good press , but very seldom to find someone to believe me....


As for the HD options - the XL is a much better press then the older models - that is for sure - as writen before , all the bad points on the SM / CD have been changed on this new stile & build , very similar to the build of the Komori - 7 o'clock schem , washers , NO GAP MARKS and more...but it is an expensive press to buy.

If you need to beet the 1.1 mil of the KBA , you need to supply an almost new press at a way lower price , or your guy will go for the KBA (unless he reads what i wrote up here

A CX-5 color could do the trick (i have one free to go)
an older CD 5 color with coater (a real advantage) could do the job too (have one free too

talk to me
menybor@yahoo.com

 

[PedroLlama]

Meny,

I already sent you an e-mail. Please send me info as soon as you can.

Regards,


Pedro

 

[saso777]

Hi Pedro,
I know what can HD CD 102 do when prints we have CD 102 6+LX and i have seen the newer XL in production.If you have good backup and service ( i think in Mexico HD is much higher then KBA when speaking of backup) then used HD is better choice than new Kba.
You can just give this address to your customer to read all comments and he will have clear picture about those two machines.

 

[PedroLlama]

Dear saso777,

Thanks for your comments. What year is your Heidelberg CD? Any special comment on its main features? Which may you suggest between CD and XL (given your experience)?

Any feedback is truly appreciated and welcome,

Regards from México.

Pedro Llama Esteinou

 

[Meny]

Pedro

XL is much better then CD for the build & technology
CD is much better then KBA for your market and to be on the safe side with the future (no one knows what will be with KBA)

KBA is still a good press , but will it be good for your buyer ?
will the buyer get good sevice on the KBA ?

Not SURE

 

[LLS northwest uk]

Xl for quick turn over cd to print everything and high quality and you will find it easier to get engineers to repair a cd everything else I would not bother with especially in this market place

 

[PedroLlama]

Hello everybody!

I'm very advanced on the proposal, but I'm still struggling with the post sale service and warranty. I've heard of companies in the UK (such as Atlantic), but I wonder if they can cover us here in Mexico. I'm still struggling to find someone who may back us in this specific topic. Any ideas?

Paul Cavanaugh, any idea on this particular situation? Is it possible that Heidelberg MX may offer us this kind of support (given the fact that it is not a new equipment and it's not being sold by HD Remarketed Equipment). I don't know. Perhaps they may not be interested.

Looking forward for your comments and feedback.

Regards from México

Pedro Llama Esteinou

 

[LLS northwest uk]

Hi Pedro do you not have any independent heidelberg engineers in Mexico? you really need to look in to this first as if you used someone from the UK I would be very surprised if they could back up the service you would need for one of these presses.
We personaly have around 400 heidelberg printers that we service in the NW of the UK we rarely go beyond a 50 mile radius this is why we have kept so busy for the last 20+ years of being independent from Heidelberg. As we can get to a customers breakdown normally within a 24hour time period
you really could do with supplying a press that could have that kind of back up what ever the make or model if not I would seriously suggest getting your customer a cd 102 as they are more printer friendly and easier to explain how to fix over the phone if you would like us to look at getting you one we could install it in mexico but what we would have to do is make sure it was 100% perfect running before install so you would have no after sale issues like you see with 99% of second hand machines from dealers if you need any more help just send me a message and I will send you our email address