my experience, low price per page, hp officejet pro 8500, adaptiveink ciss inktec ink

Discussion in 'Continuous Ink Systems' started by __-_-_-__, Nov 15, 2010.

  1. __-_-_-__

    __-_-_-__ Member

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    I want to share my experience. I wanted the lowest cost per page in colour because I need to print about 40k A6 flyers + about 10k of brochures and some more stuff.

    so I knew I would need:
    -to only use pigment ink because it's more waterproof and gives less problems
    -a printer with cartridges WITHOUT built-in printheads
    -a good CISS
    -to find the printer that spends LESS ink per page (not cartridges but ink per page)

    I've tried an k550 and a cheap ciss and this didn't worked very well due to the ciss system and k550 temperament.

    so I searched a lot about cartridges and cartriges yield and how much ink there was in a cartridge and came to a conclusion that 940xl was better and a 8500hp is built to print 15k pages per month.

    I wanted to avoid cheap ciss that don't work very well so I bought adaptiveink mini CISS that works using sealed bladders, so no problem with bubbles etc. works great. only problem is the low capacity.

    anyway I've install it on the 8500. everything is ok but no ink level, as expected due to chips. no problem.

    so about to costs:
    hp 8500 printer
    adaptiveink mini ciss
    ink
    paper

    a note about printheads: I known this would be a major problem so I've searched about it. printheads have a warranty give by a period of time starting at the date of manufacture. of course my printheads don't last forever and I've to replace them after about 100k printings. no problem hp will replace them for free.
    the printer will eventually fail. no problem 3 year warranty.

    about the ink, I've tried before cheap inks. everything was more or less ok. but I found out that inktec has the best price/quality. quality better then hp ink.
    I can find this ink for about 28€ per 1 litter.

    about costs:
    1x940xl cartridge has 16m of ink that in 5% coverage has a yied of 1400 pages.
    so... 4 cartridges 64ml.
    4x1liter 1000ml of inktec ink costs about 120€ and lasts for 21875pages giving a price per page of 0,0055€
    100% coverage @ 0,095€ per page

    issues:
    -pigment doesn't give vivid colours
    -hp8500 has some serious issues.... no colour management! wtf... (workaround installing other printer driver, it works)
    -printer paper handling has problems, it prints blank sometimes, pages get stuck
    -you can't print more then 40pages without failing because you have to wait to printheads fill with ink (you can minimize a bit this problem by increasing the dry time to max)
    -ciss is great but has a low capacity, you will need to fill it often
    -output tray is really small, solution, elevate the printer and put it a bit on diagonal and use a basket to collect the sheets
    -paper tray capacity is only 250sheets

    conclusion:
    cost per page is great but the system has some issues...
    it doesn't work for me. it's a pain to print 5k pages. it's really good printing 100 or so at a time... or some documents for office but sucks for flyers.

    I really need laser or something more piratical and cheap... that's why I'm on this forum
     
  2. answermeaquestion

    answermeaquestion New Member

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    Reply to Adaptive Ink Continuous Ink Supply System (CISS)

    Since I own an Adaptive Ink continuous ink supply system (CISS) I believe I an qualified to respond to that part of this thread (I have it hooked up to my Ricoh G700 printer ).

    My question to you sir is that your only negative about the Adaptive Ink Mini-Pro CISS is its capacity (400mL total ink volume). Why didn't you purchase their Pro-Series CISS? their smallest system is 900mL and their largest is 2,880mL total ink volume and you don't even have to refill them yourself. They have a dye ink system that is "less than a penny-per-page".

    It sounds like you ordered the wrong system for your printing needs...not Adaptive Inks fault. Check out their website (google their name) and look at all of their products. With my G700 I am getting high speed reliable printing at the lowest cost per milliliter using their Pro-Series and swapping out ink tanks is as easy as changing out cartridges and they pay to have their tanks returned to them for refilling. I do mostly photographic printing and figure I am paying less than 2 cents per page (per ISO/IEC 24711 standard) using their OEM-equivalent pigment ink.
     
  3. __-_-_-__

    __-_-_-__ Member

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    I've 3 mini-pro CISS and I've printed about 500k pages.
    "their smallest system is 900mL and their largest is 2,880mL total ink volume and you don't even have to refill them yourself."
    yes, I've to buy new refilled cartridges from them wich is incredibly expensive. I'm better off with recycled cartridges.

    "They have a dye ink system that is "less than a penny-per-page"."
    It's not 100% cover and if you print 500k that penny will cost you a lot. Prices for their ink is incredibly expensive.

    "Why didn't you purchase their Pro-Series CISS?" because the mini ciss is the only way to refill with my own ink. good quality and cheap ink. not incredibly overpriced like adaptive ink sells.

    "I am paying less than 2 cents per page" I am paying 0.164 cents. multiply it by 500k.

    "they pay to have their tanks returned to them for refilling." even if the cartridges were less expensive they wouldn't pay for the shipping to Europe where I live.

    "not Adaptive Inks fault"
    yes it is. I've printed 500k pages. I known what I'm talking about. It's a pain to refill. the bladders are bad quality and aren't sealed enough to last during many refills. they eventually lose their sealed quality which makes this ciss useless. the ciss fail in the bladder itself. the material is very week. it eventually wears out. and it fails in the refill ports, badly design, it makes you puncture the bladers while refilling. even with careful the wholes became so big that it loses the vacuum.

    Really, this is a bad ciss.
    I returned to my good L shaped extra large capacity cartridges using special filters. It's a pain too because you need to shake them from time to time to avoid clogging. anyway it's way better then adaptive ink. and way cheaper!

    but inkjet sucks really... this hp8500 has some serious issues. it doesn't even let you calibrate the colours. and colours sucks because it uses pigment ink. images lose their life. I've tried hp8000. kind of better but still very crappy.

    conclusion, I need laser. I've searched for other solutions but it's way too expensive. offset or DP doesn't compensate.
    laser works great but it's very expensive. drums, fusion units, toners etc etc. Doesn't work for me.
    So I've contracted a company which makes a price per page deal. they place the printer and give me toners and assistance and if it fails or wears down they replace it in 24hours. they recycle units and toners. It's a good business but not for a person alone like me.
    the price per page of A4 100% cover is 0,05€. kind of more expensive but not bad. and hassle free guarantee. I've wasted 3 printers so far. no problem.
    I just wished I never tried inkjects and specially that crappy adaptiveink pseudo ciss.
     
  4. jerry78749

    jerry78749 New Member

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    I am using the HP Officejet Pro 8500A printer. I have the Adaptive Ink Mini-Pro Series CISS external ink supply installed.
    A new HP 940 cartridge contains the following information: Intended for single use only.
    I have no idea what will happen when the printer ink cartridge chip activates for low ink. Inquiries to Adaptive Ink yield no information.

    Five emails to Adaptive ink prior to purchase resulted in 4 good responses concerning the purchase of a printer and the selection of external ink supplies. After the purchase of the Mini-Pro Series CSS I sent 2 emails asking about the operation of the printer and the external ink supply when the printer indicates "low ink" or "out of ink". I asked about the dates on the cartridge. I have received no response.
    I made phone calls prior to the purchase and got good response but all phone response are return calls. They never pick up the phone when you are calling. I made 3 phone calls after receiving the ink supply and left a message regarding the exact nature of the external ink supply and the printer when low ink indicator activates. I got a response once because they did not know what my question was. Once I asked the question about low ink activation they told me they did not have time to talk about it and would call back the next day. Then they spent time talking about other things. They did not call back . I also told them I needed additional information to write my review and no information has been provided. All indications here say I will have unpleasant results when the low indicator is activated by the HP ink cartridge chip.

    One online response is given for Adaptive Ink on another site and they acknowledge their problem and ask the customer to call back again. Of course we know they will not pick up the phone or return the call. They are using deceptive methods to generate a good public image but it is the place of the consumer to offer that advise on any public forum for opinions and reviews.

    The existing data is as follows:
    Purchased HP Officejet Pro 8500A on Monday, December 04, 2010 at Sam's for $240.
    Seventeen days later the ink left according to the HP8500A printer readout is approximately 70%. The Mini-Pro Series CISS plastic ink container has lost 5.1 grams total weight for all colors. This indicates ink is being sucked into the printer ink cartridges from the Mini-Pro Series CISS.

    Original color cartridges that came with printer:
    HP 940 cartridge date on cartridge is 2013/03/06
    Warranty ends 2012/09/09 as per date on packaging.

    Original black cartridge that came with printer
    HP 940 cartridge date on cartridge 2013/03/05
    Warranty ends 2012/08/30

    Original HP 940 cartridge weight after about 10 low coverage prints. Please use this information if you are checking the weight of your cartridge after extensive use or when it indicates low ink. Note; this is not the higher volume 940XL cartridge.
    • Blue 1.48 oz or 45.9 grams, Monday, December 06, 2010
    • Red 1.47 oz or 45.9 grams, Monday, December 06, 2010
    • Yellow 1.51 oz or 47.1 grams, Monday, December 06, 2010
    • Black 2.24 oz or 69.7 grams Monday, December 06, 2010

    Adaptive Mini-Pro Series CISS supply
    • Installed Saturday, December 11, 2010
    • Weight of ink supply container upon initial installation = 324 grams + or - tension on ink tubing. (11.76 oz)
    • Tuesday, December 28, 2010. Weight when about 70% of ink is left according to printer computations = 318.6 grams(11.28 oz).
    • Therefore the Mini-Pro Series CISS ink supply container has lost 5.1 grams total for all colors after 17 days of use. The HP8500A indicates about 30% of ink used on cartridge.

    Bottle of Adaptive Ink Weight (use for reference after weighing an empty bottle.)
    • Black ink bottle full weighs 151.8 grams
    • Yellow ink bottle full weighs 154.4 grams
    • Blue ink bottle full weighs 149.2 grams
    • Red ink bottle full weighs 151.6 grams
    • Total amount of all colors = 607 grams including plastic container bottle.

    The HP Officejet Pro 8500A came out in October or November of 2010. It is too early for most results. According to the amount of ink used by the 8500A computations it is economical without an external ink supply. So far I have printed about 100 4" x 6" high quality photos and about 400 written pages. If there is really 70% ink left, this is good compared to my previous printers.

    There is no time to get in a hurry since the external ink supply can always be added later when more reviews are in. Even with no external ink supply, HP has improved the cost of ink.

    I'll submit a review of the HP8500A printer in a few days. So far, I really like it.

    I will update this message board as needed.

    As things presently stand I would wait until March or April of 2011 to see the results before doing business with Adaptive Ink. At present, their business practices are highly suspect.
     
  5. __-_-_-__

    __-_-_-__ Member

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    just check the reviews about the hp8500 on the web. sure it's a nice printer but it has some serious issues. I mean this is supposed to be a state-of-art inkjet, the top of the top, but it's loaded with problems.
    paper handling is a nightmare.
    it misses blank pages constantly. paper sheets get often stuck.
    there's no color managment, specially important because it's pigment ink, not so vivid colours (though I managed through mods to add this removed feature from the drivers).
    the printer can't print more then 30 pages at once because printings will start to fade.
    it reboots from time to time
    replacing cartriges or printheads take 15min at least for the printer to be ready to print
    Compared it to an older K550 that worked ok the 8500 doesn't do it's job. it has some severe flaws that are not yet solved by hp and probably never will because they are in some part design flaws and because award winning costumer care is as good as the crappy adaptiveink.
    People are returning the 8500 massively. Don't get me wrong. It can be a great printer for a very small office. If you only print 10 or 20 pages max at once and if you don't bother with sheets getting stuck. it's also easy and fast to scan and print and it has some nice features as fax and email and those sort of things.
    about cost, the printer is very expensive, ink is very cheap. but it doesn't compensate, it would only compensate if you could print large volumes of pages which clearly the printer can't handle.
     
  6. answermeaquestion

    answermeaquestion New Member

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    AdaptiveInk on eBay...how do they rate?

    I decided to do some research on AdaptiveInk and their CISS's and found that they sell some of their systems on eBay. I found that as of today, they have 230 reviews in the last 12 months from eBay buyers. For those of you that don't use eBay. eBay uses a 5-star rating and judges the seller's (adaptive_ciss is their handle) on these four criteria. Click this link to see how Adaptive Ink is doing on eBay:

    Adaptive Ink's Detailed Seller Rating criteria (last 12 months)
    Item as described = 5-star
    Communication = 5-star
    Shipping time = 5-star
    Shipping and handling charges = 5-star

    Adaptive Ink's Recent Feedback Ratings (last 12 months)
    Positive feedback rating Positive 230
    Neutral feedback rating Neutral 0
    Negative feedback rating Negative 0

    I also found that they "sell" for FREE (.01 cents) extensive information in their OUR 2 CENTS articles about issues related to HP 8000, HP 8500, HP 940 ink cartridges, dye & pigment ink compatibility, smart chips vs ARC chips, etc.

    I have found more great information for my HP printer from these guys then on any place else on the internet! They may not be answering their phones because they are too busy helping everyone for free!

    I don't know about you, but from what I see, I'm pretty impressed. Just check out some of their eBay listings Click this link to see their eBay Listings.
     
  7. __-_-_-__

    __-_-_-__ Member

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    ebay feedback doesn't work whatsoever for adaptive ink products. I myself have gave a 5 star rating. It was about 1 week after use. Their product fail after some usage. I couldn't change my feedback despite the fact I hated the product. so having XXXx 5 star ratings on ebay it's worthless to evaluate their product quality.

    About HP 8000/8500, there are no ARC chips for the cartridges they use.
    About the claim hp are helping... well they haven't solve any of the described problems, some of them could be easily fixed if they released a new firmware.

    your post seams like an advertising. it's easy to have 5star rating on ebay. I have a 5 star rating to...
     
  8. asdf

    asdf New Member

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    Wrong approach

    I think the main problem is that you are taking a difficult approach. For large quantities, you don't want to use a small office printer, you want to use a large offset or digital press. You will end up spending considerably less, get higher quality, and you won't be constantly loading paper. I would be happy to recommend some commercial printing partners that could print and deliver your fliers for half your current cost and without you needing to tend to the printer.
     
  9. __-_-_-__

    __-_-_-__ Member

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    problem is... an offset printer or a digital press doesn't cost $300USD and has 3 year warranty........

    Also my problem is flexybility. It's not like I'm going to print 40k A4 all equal flyers. I never make the same flyer more them 2k. Sometimes I need to print 1000 A6 from one day to another. No way any "partner" is able to deliver that. And I really doubt about cost because I'm having 0.0125 per A6 flyer with shipping (because I make my own).

    But sure, please recommed some "partners" that suite my needs and for "half your current cost" like you said and I'm all for it.
     
  10. xfactor printing

    xfactor printing Senior Member

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    Definitely admire your stamina and persistence :)

    An interesting thing happens when you look at printer pricing. For some reason manufacturers rate desktop printers really high -25k, 50k monthly duty cycle. But when you look at a similar but larger more expensive model with service contract, the same manufacturers are more conservative, when the question becomes not what is possible but what is probable (where they have to be on site to service it every time it breaks!) I think most of us are looking at printers which cost 10x to 100x as much to print any volume, and can't touch 0.0125 but instead are paying 5x that for color. But if you figure in your cost of your own labor to keep it running and fixing it even if it's sending it back and forth on warranty, I'm not sure you'll come out ahead in the long run...
     
  11. __-_-_-__

    __-_-_-__ Member

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    yes, it's a pain to print 1000 flyers. I've to make it stop every 20 so it doesn't stuck paper and make bad prints. Cost is low though.

    So, I've found a cheap service contract. I pay 0.15€ colour per A3 with 100% cover (0.0375€ per A6 flyer front and back) . they I've placed a laser mfp xerox phaser. imaging unit and drum and loads of toners have been replaced. I'm not very happy with it. the printer sucks compared to other mfp. it doesn't print very fast and quality could be better for that level. I also don't like the price but it was the cheapest I could find. if the printer brokes they replaced it for another. it's not that bad and I can print 1000 flyers at a time without getting worried.
    conclusion: I just need to find a cheaper one. anyone has a printing solucion cheaper then 0.15€ A3 100% colour?
     
  12. docbill

    docbill New Member

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    Continous Ink

    I've used CIS systems for a couple of printers, and none of what you describe sound like a serious defect. The first printer I used CIS for was an Expson RX595. For that printer, the CIS system worked well. The one defect is I had to prop open the top of the printer to keep the ribbon cable in place. The printer itself failed before the CIS system. (I think I filled the CIS system once.) The next was a Pixma MP520. Again a big defect is the ribbon cable would not stay in place. Only for this printer it was much worse. After I used about 50% of the ink in the system, two different inks decided to dry out on me over night. Eventually when I refilled the ink tanks the printer spit all the black ink in the cartridge out at once. After lots of cleaning, managed to get the printer to feed through paper without smears all over it again. However, my attempts to get the ribbon to fill again to feed the printer failed for the first three hours of attempts. Then when it looked liked I finally had that problem solved the printer gave an error 6C10 and remained in that error state until I gave-up.

    So if I were to rate quality, the first CIS was a 4 star. The second CIS was a 1 star. But of course my e-bay ratings were 5 star, since these problems happened after I left feedback. From the way you describe the CIS system for the 8500A, I would consider it a 5 star. In fact, based on your comments I just ordered it for my new printer.

    That is not of course to say there is not room for improvement. :)
     
  13. __-_-_-__

    __-_-_-__ Member

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    currently for small volumes I went back using large L-shaped cartridges, they have more capacity and don't give any trouble once they are set and filled. it's not a ciss though, it's only large tanks. 120ml each. that's plenty of ink. I'll never use adaptives*ck again.
     
  14. docbill

    docbill New Member

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    At the time of posting, actually I had just added the item to my checkout. In the end I decided to order the following instead:

    http://cgi.ebay.ca/Pigment-CISS-CIS.../180663376555?pt=BI_Toner&hash=item2a10605aab

    The main reason is I could not get the adaptive ink order to process for Canada. I'm happy with my ebay purchase. The system is not quite as compact looking. However, I like being able to clearly see my ink levels and the total capacity is slightly higher than the adaptive ink ciss. Still if I could have ordered the adaptiveink system I would have.

    For me it was important to have pigment ink, because I wanted the best quality photos for the price. If you goal is cheap printing, you should go with a dye ink system. The following would probably work well for that:

    http://cgi.ebay.ca/CIS-CISS-HP8500A.../140540545974?pt=BI_Toner&hash=item20b8de8bb6

    I have not used the dye ink with the 8500A, so I cannot say how well it works. I have to say I agree with most reviewers in that the 8500A paper feeder sucks big time.
     
  15. __-_-_-__

    __-_-_-__ Member

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    just posting my experience again. after months of use the large cartridges are the way to go. no issue whatsoever. Just have to be careful when filling them and always place filters. no clogs or any other problems.
    Replaced printheads several times while in guarantee (3years) at 0 cost. 1 printer dead due to unknown issue was also replaced.
    For the lowest price per page there's no better then a pro inkjet printer. Though I don't recommend HP because of huge issues with paper handling etc, in the 8500 series they really lowered the ink consumption. Very impressive.
    For reliability I recommend Brother and other brand printers, but it varies a lot from model to model.
    For large volumes inkjet printers (even the top models) are not suitable or reliable for the job. Adaptive ink ciss is as reliable as the hp8500 printer. literally a piece of crap. I didn't tried other ciss but I think most won't work much better, at least when printing a large volume. The ink needs to flow faster and a ciss can't provide that. A large cartridge is just that, a large, cartrige, simple and it works though oversized. Actually my L shaped cartridges have more ink then some ciss.
    Laser printers worked great but they have a much higher cost per page. With a company backing up the production and paying a price per page I managed to drop prices for about 80%. Maintaining myself a laser printer is insanely costly.
     
  16. brianhu

    brianhu Member

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  17. __-_-_-__

    __-_-_-__ Member

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    worthless. you don't even have the models talked about in this topic. stop spamming.
     
  18. __-_-_-__

    __-_-_-__ Member

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    after some years I came back to report my experience.
    my dear officejet pro is in the end of it's life because the extended 5 year warranty is over so it won't be replaced.
    what I've learned:

    -ciss are ****. at least most of them. they have loads of problems
    -large refillable cartridges are the way to go
    -printers with replaceable printheads are awesome
    -price per page based on 25€ liter inktec inks (which are even better than hp inks btw) and 25€ printheads(takes 2 and last about 30-60k)
    is about 0.009€ (100% cover) <- try to beat that.

    I printed about 500k pages. printer was replaced twice under warranty. several printheads were also replaced under warranty (1year).
    printer is noisy. printing quality for pigment ink is low to medium. it's slow relatively to laser. takes large amounts of times to clean printheads between jobs.
    worked great and I'll use it until it breaks and then I'll have to buy a new one to get a new warranty (plus extended warranty plan).
    I'm looking for laser now but I don't know if it's a good idea. now there's also pagewide technology but printheads aren't replaceable. if they are covered under warranty then great. but I'm also looking for A3. so I don't know. might buy 2.
     

  19. mozzie

    mozzie Member

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    i have a thread its old but i can put input....i have run all sorts of ciss and inktanks with generic ink etc.. an agree with all you say buy have to admit that the pagewide is amazing, i caught them on sale for 25% of price bought 7 im thinking getting a used laser light production for booklets,small one so i have more automated quick run setup..also have a professional perfect binder that does 200 books n hour till 40mm wide ..but back to the ciss i agree refillable are the way to go an do try the pagewide i have them runing all all types,oem pigment, low budget dye ,high qua dye and generic pigment .. an the have clog some times with the low cost...but as you say less then penny you don't feel bad doing a deep clean...pagewide or any other brand same tech is the future.. an one thing people forget ...inkjet waste 10% energy laser wastes,hp 8600 wastes 19w a laser equiavalent can waster 500w add that up in energy bills an laser parts..and i dont even give an *** for the warranty im in africa, my tech explained what he does to the hp agents to the machine we bought,ciss etcc.. they even told not to buy them as no one wanted them .. and had a hi return(printer cost 500usd the full ink cost 700usd when people finished them and found out the price returned them,they can empty a full cartridge in less than 10min.) my tech was hired by them to be there tech ....so if i send my machine to hp its my tech fixing them kekekekek
     

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