Komori L628c picture framing problems

I am not exactly looking for answers to my picture framing problem, although any one with a good answer would be greatly appreciated . What I am looking for is other Komori operators with this problem. My press is a 2004 , 3000 series press and I would like to hear from anyone with a similar press and picture framing problems.

 

John I'm running a 2004 5/28 NL series,serial no 3010, which was bought from europe and sent to australia. We were told that these presses do have a picture framing problem, but komori upgraded the dampening. I'm not exactly sure what they did but I think it has something to do with the dampening gear ratios or the drive in the dampening motor. Komori do know about these issues and I would suggest you contact your local agent.

I hope this helps
jet screamer

 

John,
The fountain solution just might be the solution to your problem. But in the meantime, what fountain solution, ink and plate are you using. Also check with your roller guy, I had this happen once after fitting new rollers and indeed they were of different material. Most of the time the framing is caused by ink breaking down and the resins not getting cleaned out of the plate grain. Now we have to figure out if it's mechanical, chemistry or most likely both.

 

Throne,
I am using Prisco 162-50 at 6 oz. per gal. nothing else. My ink is INX EcopureHPJ, plates ar Fuji LHPJ. I do believe it is mechanical, but also believe I can help it chemically. I can get the press to print well , sharp dot, color holds, very little adjustments of the waters after run begins even on long runs.
It just picture frames, requiring undercutting of the blanket packing or many blanket washes and even impression cylinder washes.
Are you running a Komori?
John

 

Yes, ran the 28's for many years now got a 29. Your ink and I have ran trouble free, although I liked the LHPI plate better even if was prone to scratching. The 162-50 I felt like it needed more acid and gum. You may try good ole 3451-u and alcoless 6000. Set rollers lite, plate .004 over and blanket even with bearers. Packing gauge packing gauge packing gauge!

Keep us posted
Throne
Who loves premium blankets

 

Throne,
Thanks for your input. I am jealous of you for getting the 29, that is what I was asking for when I got this thing. I have tried the 3451-u with the alcoless 6000 it made no difference to the picture framing. I have had some success in setting the water rollers in a assbackword way, week 4 to the chrome fat 4 to the plate. Helped quite a bit. I have had the water form circumference made smaller and that seemed to help some. I have tried 6 different rubber compounds on the water rollers until I found the best. Last week thinking on your suggestion of setting the rollers lite I set one unit (the 2nd ) lite, as in 1 mm lite to the vibrators and the plate. MASSIVE improvement, not cured but a huge improvement none the less. Today at the end of the day I changed the packing on the blanket .001 th. less. I have always been taught
to pack a compressible blanket to between .004 and .006 th. I shoot for a .005 . We will see what happens.

John

 

Fantastic! Glad things are moving in the right direction.
So.....
Do tell, what is the best rubber compound for your press?

Throne

 

Our press picture frames on longer runs. There is only one ink/fountain solution combination I have used that did not picture frame.
Habitat ink / fountain solution
Both the ink and fountain solution have been built to work in unison, not fight each other like every other ink / fountain solution on the market

The main part of your picture framing may well be caused by a mechanical design flaw, but you will likely find if you use a completely solvent free fountain solution /ink system such as what is on offer from Habitat chemistry the picture framing will be reduced again or completely eradicated.

 

Your terminalligy seems different, but from reading about your problems I would say you have a roller issue in your damps. I put 150 million on a 40" 5 colour and it was always an old hard roller making my life hard, old being 6 months or more. The machine ran 24- 7, heat was not helping. Do you have a derometer guage? if so 25 is a good damp, but it won't last long.

 

Throne,
I borrowed a packing gauge from a friend last week to compare it with mine just to make sure. I am packed perfectly with a .004 to a .004.5 between the plate and blanket. I always start lite with the back cylinder pressures and only squeeze what the particular substrate requires. Resetting of the ink roller nips seemed to have helped on one job, but now seems to be back to normal picture framing. The best rubber compound I have found for the water rollers so far is Northwest Roller Co. hydrophilic compound. Now they have been bought out by Radeli so who knows what is next.

Luke
I just herd about this HABITAT stuff last week. The info came from an old friend that now owns an ink company in southern cal. He has a customer with the exact problems as I do. This person asked him about me because of seeing me on another blog. Interesting. I will be giving it a try as soon as time permits. As you know I one can only test one thing at a time.

FSA,

I do have a derometer and I have had forms made at 22, I have put in new ink rollers and water rollers, all new bearings with the same results instantly.

Just a note here: In September of this year marks my 40th year of running sheetfed presses, 20 years on Komori lithrones, This is my 4th Komori and I have never had problems like this.

Thanks for all your support!
John

 

Hey I've been thinking about your problem, are your blankets a ground surface or a buffed surface ? At a shop I was in it was not one item but a bunch making it show up fast, less than 10,000 impressions. Went to a buffed blanket, lowered the conductivity in the plate processing, and finally change the etch. It was eating the background of the plate, reduced surface tenion on the blanket you will hear the difference when the press is running. Are you getting "picture framing" to every job or just some jobs?

 

John, you will need to use the Habitat TF fountain solution if you use the Habitat ink..
Every other fountain solution on the market will break the ink down which is totally against what your aiming for.

 

FSA LUKE,

Actually blanket surface tension was the first thing I looked at. At 10,000 I will always have picture framing. I may just be imagining this, but it seems that on the short runs if I ever start up dry on a particular unit, that one will picture frame while the others seem good.

Our shop has been slow, to say the least for the past year or so it is making accurate testing very time consuming.

Sent HABITAT an email today.

Onward & upward

John

 

question, is your fountain etch a phosphate free?

 

FSA,
Not sure , I will check it out tomorrow. Any particular reason why?

 

All presses print good at first, as time goes on the slim grows in the lines, tank and everywhere the water touches. Phosphate free has no growth in the system. Here in town one of the presses that I work on is a 8-c sm102p, the company would not listen to myself and others telling the suits that this etch sucks! what started as every week water change and tank cleaning turned to everyday. The run lenght is not long in that shop , but when the etch was changed a whole host of issues went away. I switched to a phosphate free etch in the late 80's, and alot of printing problems I have resolved by cleaning up the water system, on millers, heidelbergs, ryobies, goss, harris and komori.
Sometimes it's the simple little things that can make the biggest difference. At present I'm using Prisco 2452 on most of the machines I run, and only the miller these days do I see runs over 100,000 and the plates don't show any signs of wear, and it not a press that I would say is in perfect. But the water system is running a Phosphate free etch.

 

Sorry the etch is "2451 plus 2"

 

I've always used a Fountain systems cleaner, every second fount dump, this way there is no sludge buildup or microbial growth in the tank and lines.
Also any decent fount should have preservatives, AKA - antimicrobial inhibitors in it.

 

Well there are alolt of different etches out there, and they all have something that their competetion doesn't have, I'm not a chemist but at a blanket seminar it was suggest that the more buffers in the solution the better, and from what we found that the phophate free etches had more "buffer agents". Water on the plate surface is were the picture framing problem lies, the etch is the barrier that protect it. I have kept a log book on many presses, the longest I've gone without a cleaning is 6 and a half months, the only reason the tank got a cleaning is because the house air compressor blow up! To me phosphate free keeps the problem away for reason that I just can't put my finger on the exact property that makes the biggest difference, but phosphate free etches out preform the others. Question, what type of plate are you using, subtractive, thermal, additive? Looking for the perfect combination mean you have the change something, I have not been changing because have found it, thermal CTP, Prisco 2451 plus 2, using Sun ink, and David M blankets, and VWM wash from varn, I have very few problems, well lets not talk about the art department. Good Luck

 

Genesis by Amerikal also makes an excellent line of high quality products. They have phenomenal fountain solutions and they are super knowledgable about the printing industry, printers and how the product works. They are not one to just sell you a product. They will ask you what you use, what problems you are having, what inks and equipments you use. I actually was having blanket wash problems. They got me hooked on their LemonAire Wash. It is amazing because it is low VOC (as is all their chemistry), meets regulation guidelines, and most importantly cleans the heck out of my blankets. The down time is short, the cleanliness of my equipment is awesome, and there is no residue or smell. It literally sucks ink off the blankets and leaves it so clean that you can wipe a rag over them and have no residue. They are based in Illinois and I would recommend them to anyone.