ink problems with t head

Discussion in '1-Color and 2-Color Offset Presses' started by kblack, Feb 12, 2012.

  1. kblack

    kblack Senior Member

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    I run a 9910xcd with t-51 head. Having big problems withe ink creeping on the blanket. I have to run the ink heavy to keep the color up but then really have to watch so ink don't creep down on the blanket. I do not know how to adjust or check to see if rollers are adjusted correctly. Where do i begin. thanks and could really use some help. the t head is where i need the help. thanks kblack
     
  2. ziggy33

    ziggy33 Senior Member

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    T head form rollers mimic your parent head to change them is pretty much the same. The thing with t heads is that the water ink ratio is very touchy, if you don't have it right from the start you'll be fighting it all day long. I haven't ran my t head in a year or so but last time I did I had to run quite a bit of water on the t head and not so much on parent head. Hope that helps I also have the books for it if you'd like me to scan me and send me to ya I have the townsend t head on a 9840
     
  3. kblack

    kblack Senior Member

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    Thanks ziggy33 i will try that. so should i put more ph in the water.It just seems like if i run a thousand or so im all right. But if i run more than that i really have to watch cause ink creeps down on the blanket then on the paper. I have to stop quite often and clean the blanket. Im getting alot of ink on the leading edge of the plate. we are running poly plates. Its the leading edge that kills me. thanks kblack
     
  4. ziggy33

    ziggy33 Senior Member

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    One thing that will solve all that would be to run metal plates, I cant stand poly they are garbage I used to run it all the time. What's your fountain solution at? Alcohol?
     
  5. kblack

    kblack Senior Member

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    the fountain solution is at 3oz per 32. not puting any alcohol in. Would alcohol in the solution dry it out
    and it scum up more than already is.? Im new to this and don't know all the correct settings, terms, ratio's etc. I was just shown the basics and am learning on my own. Plus help with this forum. thanks ziggy33 kblack
     
  6. FFR428

    FFR428 Senior Member

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    What type and brand of fountian solution? With poly I always use the pink mega solution. Have you tried distilled water? Also what type of roller wash are you using? There can be cross contamination from your wash to solution whcih can add to the problem. What type and brand of ink? And last what type of water system does the T head have? Stock conventional bareback, molleton, kompac, crestline?
     
  7. kblack

    kblack Senior Member

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    I will check and write down everything at work, then post it tomorrow. i know the fountain is pink mega solution, havn't used distilled water not sure the type of roller wash and will check on the watering system i believe it is stock.
     
  8. kblack

    kblack Senior Member

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    FFR428 i am using abdick mega plate fountain concentrate, Rycoline rva-119 premium wash or solex premium wash, no alcohol, stock watering system.hope you can help. thanks kevin
     
  9. FFR428

    FFR428 Senior Member

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    Ok a few things. I normally run a Komac which runs a bit on the dry side. The mix I use is per 28 oz. 22oz distilled water, 4 oz mega solution and 2 oz mega plate etch. Adding the etch helps desensitize the plates on startup and acts as a extra wetting agent. Wash I normally use is Varn VWM which is a water miscible wash and I also use some water on the rollers too. You might not need the etch added but try a extra oz of fountian solution and the distilled water keeps a nice balance. You can also try water out of your water cooler if you have one at the shop.

    I think you might be having some technical issues with the T head as well which can compound things. Since the main head runs ok (yes?) take a good look at a few things on the T head. First the water ductor roller brackets. Some of the brackets are brass which can wear. The bracket the water ductor roller sits in and the clips that go over and hold the roller in place should normally not have any play. With the ductor roller in place try to move the roller up/down/sideways and look for excessive play. If there is the roller slops around in the bracket which adds to the problems. If there is excessive play it needs new parts. Next be sure the snubbers that hold the form roller shafts in place are not worn allowing the form roller to slip off pressure. The snubber is located in the bushing on the sideframe where the water form roller shaft goes through. you'll see a nut with a slotted screw head the snubber is the spring and ball bearing that holds the form roller shaft in place. These can wear and allow the roller to not be held in place. Check the roller linkage is engaging all the rollers into place. The linkage bars can wear after time as well. Check the from roller shaft where the snubber sits, you'll see a divot on the shaft. If this looks worn good chance the roller isn't locking in place. Also check to be sure the water fountain roller is not stripping water off it as it turns. This is easy to see. Clean with plate cleaner or 3M R scratch remover and gum roller with gum arabic and allow to air dry. Next check your pressures from water fountain to ductor, to distributor, to occilator to form. When the unit is inked up you should be able to see the stripe from roller to roller. As Ziggy mentioned be sure water and ink form pressure is heavy enough. As rollers swell they get larger on the ends and you'll lose pressure in the middle of the roller. Sometimes with balance problems the ink dries on the water rollers and this can cause over watering issues. Next check to be sure the water fountain roller ratchet and pawl are turing the roller correctly and it's not hesitating or stopping. These parts also wear after time and stop working and need to be replaced. Last check to be sure your ink on the water rollers isn't dried up as this can cause water balance issues and over water sometimes. Be sure the ink forms are set right and everything is cool there as well. T heads can be fussy and the stock bareback water system fussy as well. If your getting a line at the top of your sheet you need to move the plate cyl a tooth or so up. If the top of the plate cyl is below the blanket you'll get a line every time. Good ink, solution mix all goes out the window if there's problems with the unit itself. Back to the water ductor roller I normally dab a little grease on the metal **** where the roller sits in the brackets. Oil washes off and then they wear as metal to metal contact happens. Grease sticks a little better and survives washups better. Take a good look at the T-head and let me know what you see. Good luck!
     
  10. kblack

    kblack Senior Member

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    Thanks, FFR428 and ziggy33. I will have to print this all out and take it to work tomorrow cause there is no way i will remember all that .But its at least something i can take and get a good look at the t head. today i ran 15,000 envelopes and had no problem. Switched to letterheads and was starting having problems. So i washed the t head and main and called it a day.
     
  11. FFR428

    FFR428 Senior Member

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    Forgot to mention.............if your ink in the T head is real soupy you can try adding some Varn aqua varnish/tack increaser to build up the ink body a bit. If ink is very tacky and stiff add some tack reducer. I have also mixed 50/50% oil base to acrylic/rubber base ink in some problem cases. But normally run all oil base inks.
     
  12. Inky

    Inky Senior Member

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    FFR428 has given you some good advice.

    If you are in this for the long haul I'd bite the bullet and find someone like him locally to print a few jobs with you, they'll show you how to stripe everything up & a few tricks.
     
  13. FFR428

    FFR428 Senior Member

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    I was wrong on the snubber info, that was for the older t heads. Newer style is a little different sorry bout that. Good luck.
     
  14. kblack

    kblack Senior Member

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    FFR and ziggy,
    I took a good look at the the t head and there are some parts that are worn. I guess my question now is how do i check pressures from fountain to ductor to dist, to occilator to form. Im confused on legal teminology of what parts are called what. and also what and where i do check to see if ink forms are set right. There is alot of slop in the roller that sits in the brass cradle and bounces back and forth against stainless steel water roller. I am looking around the shop for a parts manual so i can figure out what these parts are called and where they are located.please bare with me, i really appreciate the information you have provided so far. thanks kblack
     
  15. kblack

    kblack Senior Member

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    I think this t head is and older one, cause it looks like it came over on noahs ark. (just kiddn) Sure wish one of you lived closer to help. we have one guy that lives an hour away that works on them. he charges 125 an hour with a minimum of 4 hours which prob wouldn't be so bad but he talkes more than he works.So my boss is hesitant on having him come. thanks kblack
     
  16. FFR428

    FFR428 Senior Member

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    Can you post a picture of the T head? I might have a parts manual I can copy and send. Yep sounds like the water ductor brackets are shot. With that much play in them it just adds to the havoc. And won't transfer water correctly. To check your pressures in the water system first drain the water fountian and dry the fountain roller. Ink up the rollers so there's a nice even film of ink. Then turn the press by hand, the ductor should leave a ink stripe on the water fountain roller. Then get a flashlight and turn the press by hand a little more till the ductor roller hits the idler roller. Let it sit a sec then rotate it a bit and look with the flashlight at the idler and you'll see the stripe in the ink. Do this forward to check occilator and then to the form. Then last check form to plate by bringing the water form up to "water" (with the press off and dry plate on cyl) then back off. Rotate the press and you'll see the stripe on the plate. On the occilator rollers (water and ink) you'll see screw heads on or by the side clamps that hold them in. By turning the screw in or out this will increase or decrease pressure. Check and adjust the ink rollers the same way. You want to see a nice stripe about 1/8" to 3/16" across and even. If the rollers are swollen on the ends you need to make the pressure a bit heavier to get a nice stripe across. To increase or decrease form to plate pressure, on the operator side end of the form roller shafts you'll see a small allen screw on the knurled part of the knob and a regular screwdriver slot in the middle of the shaft. Loosen the allen screw with allen wrench and use screwdriver to adjust the pressure. To the left increases and to the right decreases pressure. If the water ductor brackets are played out they need to be replaced. This will get the T head back where you can operate the press normally. It's the bosses call if he gets the guy in there. Watch the guy and you'll pickup a few things. A picture of the head will help to see how old it is. I have run some of the very first T heads that ever came out. Those are old!!
     
  17. kblack

    kblack Senior Member

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    Thanks FFR, I like the way you are explaining things, that helps alot. I should be able to post a picture ,but im more of a nuts, bolts, screws, springs, levers and knobs type of guy not a computor wiz. I leave that up to our composers. Would a serial number help. But what you said makes sense to me. thanks kblack.
     
  18. FFR428

    FFR428 Senior Member

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    You can take a cell phone pic, email it to yourself, save it and post it here as an attachment. Serial number might help too. Are the water, ink rollers on a linkage that works with the handle in one shot....or do you need to turn the rollers on by hand then bring the lever down to print? I know I have a part manual for the newer ones that have the all in one linkage. I might have a older one too I'll need to look.
     
  19. kblack

    kblack Senior Member

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    FFR, yes the handle controls the water and ink rollers, first notch is water second engages the ink rollers. seems like the ratchet on non operators side is working good, no slop. Although i have to have the water control knob all the way out to maintain good color it seems like i cant get a happy medium. If i turn that knob in even just a little its way to wet. If i leave it out i get ink build up on the leading edge. And well you know what happens. Its ok early on, but after 2500 copies of envelopes or letterheads i have to stop and wipe blanket down after running 500 or even sometimes every hundred. the university here uses pantone 200.It's just really hard to maintain good color and they are really picky about color which i understand. Im sure that some parts are pretty worn, and thats prob not helping the problem. I have some other questions i want to ask you but for now i will try and correct the one we have been discussing. I will try and post a picture, i will have one of our composers take a picture and help me post it as i don't have email on my phone. kblack
     

  20. ghuerth

    ghuerth Senior Member

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    form settings on ABDick and T-51

    Several things you can do. Start with form roller pressures on the parent press, it affects ink and water balance on the T-51. ABDick upper form stripe with an alcohol system should be 1/8 to 5/32, lower form 5/32 to 3/16 maximum. How to stripe rollers? Hang a dry plate onto the plate cylinder. After inking up rollers turn form roller knobs to the off position. Place the operation control lever into the ink position. Roll press cylinders around so that the gaps of the plate and blanket cylinders are are visible (this insures plate is over the ink forms). Using the form knobs turn each roller to the on position then off. This makes contact from form roller to plate. Roll the cylinders around to view the contact stripe to the plate. You want an even stripe from end to end. If swollen on ends or in the middle recommend replacement. To adjust: Access holes in cover to adjusting screws next to form knob. Locate adjusting screws, 2 slotted post, lower post locks and unlocks upper adjusting eccentric. Operator side upper form adjustment clockwise to increase, lower form counter clockwise to increase. Non-operator side adjustments are the opposite to operator side adjustments. If upper form is adjusted , water dwell from water ductor roller also is affected and needs to be adjusted for even contact to oscillating roller.T head problems? Why start here? Because the T-51 unit receives water via the blanket cylinder. T-51 forms: #1 and #2 form should have a 5/32 form stripe and #3 form is water form should have a 3/32 inch stripe. To much plate to blanket pressure can cause scumming problems. This is a start.
    ghuerth
    Fullerton College Print Technology Instructor
    Offset Repair Field Technician ($80.00 per Hour plus Travel) I travel during school breaks.
     
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