ink pigments

[turbotom1052]

id like to put a question out there to pressman that have been running multicolor sheetfed presses for over 10 years or so... ive noticed over the years that there seems to be a trend towards sheetfed inks being manufactured with less pigment than say 10 to 15 years ago. my theory is that the ink manufacturers in an effort to maximize profits are either using less pigment or weaker pigments to make their inks.. seeing how the pigments are the most costly component of ink, using less pigment would be a double win for the ink manufacturers. they cut cost by using less pigment, then they sell more ink by virtue of us printers having to buy more lbs to arrive at the same color. it seems that as of the last 5 years or so inks are getting weaker and weaker causing us pressman to run thicker ink films. this has resulted in a multitude of problems to include slow drying, more setoff, having to run more water to compensate, ect. ect. i realize that this thread will probably make ink manufacturers very defensive so im putting this out there to see if anyone agrees with me. if youve noticed this trend then please respond. i hope this thread does not get flagged because of the possible influence of the ink industry
tom
oh yea and if you guys have come across a full strenghth ink that performs well on press please either list it in the open forum or drop me a private message

 

[turbotom1052]

i posted this well over a year ago and see that nobody has responded. its up again in hopes of getting it revived.

 

[Kirk]

What specific inks are you using?

 

[turbotom1052]

i really dont want to use this forum to bash any ink company in particular. lets just say that ive noticed this trend with inks from various manufacturers. ive been running sheetfed presses for over 30 years and im very in tune with things like this. it just appears to me that the trend seems to be that either the pigments are not as strong or the ink companies are using less of them. what ive noticed most is on pms colors. seems like withing the last 10 years or so ive had to run a thicker ink film on my rollers to arrive at a color match to the pms book. ive noticed this even on gloss coated stocks so its not an issue of the paper holding out. and all this happens mind you when ive been running alcohol free . you would think that running without alcohol would allow you to run a thinner ink film as the ipa is not acting as a solvent to the inks. i suppose i shouldnt complain too much because the upside is that with the ever decreasing quality of some of the paper out there the additional ink film is at least keeping the hickeys in check!!!!

 

[Green]

I have noticed the same thing Turbotom.
A lot of ink manufacturers are sourcing their pigments from china.. cheaper obviously. Also they are adding more and more fillers.
There are still a few CMYK inks out there that have a high pigment load in them though, but I have noticed their PMS colour range to be lacking in strength.

You say you are running alcohol free; What is the total glycol % or Alc replacment cas#% of the fountain solution you are using at the moment?
What some printers don't realise is that 98% of founts that are being run without IPA, are still a solvent based fountain solution containing glycols or other alc replacments..
Move towards the advanced "thin ink film technology" and use a low voc non solvent based fountain solution inline with the appropriate "think" ink and you will be printing with much thinner ink films.

Green.

 

[marker]

i have ink from the 1970`s and 1980`s still. it is a lot thinner then the new inks are. they have stiffened the ink to preform well on these continuous water systems that basically have no adjustment. the best water system i think is mollitens. ( i think i spelled it wrong) i can run any ink there is with them.
but these alcolor, abdick (the original systems of the 70`s) need the stiffer ink to help carry the water.

 

[Green]

Marker,
Move with the times,, Moleton how could you call this the best dampening system.. Put that system on the machines we have these days and lets see it run well sittting on 14000 - 17000 Sh. The control you have in the dampening systems today far exceeds that of moloton.
The inks are stiffer to help them from breaking down and misting at high speed and from the roller power the presses have these days.

Try run a fresh batch of ink that is a thin body & tack at high speed and you soon have everything covered in a fine ink mist.

 

[marker]

how can i call it the best? i`ve never had a problem with them. period. and it`s cheaper to throw on a new cover then buying a new roller.
now, put that system on a newer press? no. it was not designed to run like that, can`t keep up. so that`s why there is continuous.
i don`t the same jobs every day. i ask a lot of my presses and the moleton always delivered. wood, ( no joke, printed bus. cards for a guitar maker) plastic, whatever can fit through it.

 

[turbotom1052]

i dont miss changing, or cleaning moleten covers or 3m sleeves

 

[RichardK]

I am positive that some inks are more densely pigmented than others. We changed from Flint to TOYO some months ago and noticed an immediate up surge in ink density on the sheet requiring almost 10 to 15% reduction in ink feed (particularly magenta).

I don't think this is a trend but as a previous poster pointed out - inks these days have to run at far higher speeds than was previously possible. As the demands change in print then so, logically, do the components in the inks.

 

[steveo]

Toyo always had a heavier pigment load....but some are going away from that true , I try to stick with the higher quality ink manufacturers cause a little more money up front is worth it to avoid down time.....

 

[printgal]

Turbotom,

This isn't an attack, I had my husband address your concern just because this is something that he deals with everyday.
Printgal

The one thing missing in this conversation the change in paper over the last few years. The ink companies have had to adjust to lower quality stock that has enough calcium to destroy PH buffers in fountain solution not to mention the amount of of hold out due to poor coating. Running a thicker ink film does help with hickies but also helps the transfer on poreous surfaces.
As far as drying. If the ink and water balance is kept in check along with using compatable fountain solutions and proper roller maintenance most of todays "Greener" inks (another issue) will perform very well at even todays speeds.

 

[turbotom1052]

printgal the things you mention in your post are some of the realities of the industry we work in today. i would still however prefer that if the need arises me as the pressman has the option to deal with it as i see fit. if im delivered a well performing ink with a high pigment load that needs to be adjusted by extending it with some transparent white in order to lay better, or to keep hickeys in check i want to be the one that makes that decision as opposed to having that decision being made for me by some bean counter at the ink manufacurer. the sad state of the industry these days is that often the level of experience with the current crop of so called "pressman' is such that less and less people are even questioning these decisions because they often dont even notice these ongoing trends. in the industries quest to lower operating costs the level of craftmanship has declined to a point where more and more you see button pushers as opposed to skilled tradesman. the further reaching impact of this trend is that it fosters an enviroment where substandard product is being allowed to compromise the process!!!!
im all for technology when it helps the process but in certain instances the so called latest technology or even the latest business models that exist just to maximize profit for that particular segment of the industry has often given a "shot in the foot" to the rest of us.
to further my point please tell me why this trend i mention seems to occur much less often when it comes to an ink manufacturers 4/c process sets. my feeling is that because there are in place some real measurable standards that the ink manufacturers must adhere to when making these inks. these standards go right to the heart of modern ctp calibrations and prepress curves. its much easier for an ink company to make a weaker pms match than it is to alter a process sets pigment load.
so tell me mr pringal how do you account for that?

 

[printgal]

Turbotom,
Have you ever hit the nail on the head. We are in an era where the skilled craftsperson is a bygone animal. Changes has forced by many of our suppliers is to adjust. The stronger inks that you desire are out there, like what steveo pointed out. The sets with stronger pigment are higher in cost, mileage is much greater but many companies don't see that. Many of the ink companies have been pushed to adjust to the "button pusher" to avoid have a technician camping out on site to help teach a press operator how deal with something he knows nothing about and is still learning how to run the press. The economy has forced out many of our fellow craftspeople and replaced us with a few knowledgable people, like yourself, to babysit and teach folks who are 9-5 'ers who care nothing about the trade & what makes everything mesh, just how little they can do to get a paycheck. My husband and I have been in the trade for 30+years and man have we ever witnessed evolution, some wonderful on the technical side and some not so good because it has caused the employers to think, "anybody can do this" nowadays.
Mr. Printgal writes....
We also are being forced to deal with management of almost all printing companies looking for a deal on components like paper cheaper press wash etc...
To get back to your point. Yes there are standards set by both GATF and the newer G7. Both of these include dot gain, trap along with spectro data. These standards must be obtainable for the "button pushers as well as the experienced crafts people. Most of the button pushers don't have a clue how to alter trap or optimize dot gain. Is a sad statement for the overall industry? yes, but none the less something we must all deal with from this point on. Times have changed and we must ALL deal with that fact.

 

[turbotom1052]

my guess mr printgal is that you work in the ink industry??? if in fact that is the case i must say that your the first ink rep that ive ever heard acknowledge that manufacturing cost plays such an important role in the quality of the product. i fully realize that we all need to change with the times but im very much of the feeling that if all cards are put on the table (as you seem to have done) and the end user is not only made aware of the implications of such cost cutting measures but also offered an upgraded product, or should i say a retro quality product then everything is above board. too many times ive been led to believe that the trends ive been taking notice of was nothing more than my imagination. if i was a one man show i could probably find a suitable work around to these issues in many cases. for instance i could whenver possible take a step up in the pms book whenever a mix had a transparent white component. or if a pms cool grey 5 was requested i could put in cool gray 6. or better yet buy cool gray base and mix my own to a stronger pigment load it could solve all problems and as an added bonus save a bit of money. i think everyone knows that a can of cool gray 5 costs as much as a can of cool gray 6 and that tranparent white is the least expensive of all the inks!!!! but as discussed earlier we are forced to work within the boundries of the industry as it is today and the sad fact is that not all pressroom employees even know what im talking about. for the ones that do my hats off to you and if your someone with old school training coming up in the industry today then its up to you guys to keep it going in the right direction. the way to do that is to hold your suppliers and even your co workers to a higher standard. a standard more in line with the standard you hold for yourself. and if your a supplier of anything print related then target a market share thats more inline with your product line. mr printgal you might be suprised at just how many people would be willing to pay a higher cost if they received a superior product and if their not willing to pay more then at least they are aware there are options.

 

[Data]

Yes we've noticed a big change over the year. As smaller ink manufacturers were bought up, their good products disappeared. We have to keep an eye on how much medium/pigment suppliers put in to the inks.

inks these days have to run at far higher speeds than was previously possible. As the demands change in print then so, logically, do the components in the inks

Sorry but i had some old letterpress ink from the 60's (linseed based) that produced the job far better than the new stuff, at 8,000s/hr

 

[turbotom1052]

im no ink chemist but ive gotta believe that the increased running speeds of modern day presses would require an ink than can be run at a lower ink film thickness than at a higher ink film thickness. i do know enough to say that all other things being equal with any given ink the thinner ink film will be a tackier ink film and thus be less prone to misting at the higher speeds sheetfed presses are running these days. as ink strenghth weakens and the ink film thickness becomes greater its more likely to mist at high speeds. if im missing something here please tell me.

 

[bikozak1]

I agree with this statement. Pigments carry hydrophyllic properties, so ink manufacturers have to be careful not to carry too much. If they do, the pigments will literally draw the water up to the fountain and it will be waterlogged (cyan usually most problematic). The other side of the coin is the route where they start to cheap out on you and add fillers/varnishes to reduce the more expensive pigment content. This can be spotted with a mileage test in comparison with another ink. But even better, if you have the capability, try to meet the swop color gamut. If you cannot push your densities to the desired targets without losing control of your ink, you do not have enough strength in your ink. When you have that info, then you can call the manufacturer and call his bluff. Enjoy.

 

[DanRemaley]

Here's a new, (old) idea. . print a decent color bar that can measure midtone gain, print contrast and gray balance. . .now we can tell something about the ink!
Dan Remaley
American Print Consulting
412.889.7643