color variation HUGE from press sheets I approved for color

I attended and approved color at set up of mutiple document press sheets. All day event. the press runs for each job were about 1 hour each

retained sets of the sheets I approved
got back finished samples, and color was WAYY off
not even close

color for the green headers on the brochure was 4 color process, and the press operator had good balance of cymk when they were approved at startup

not sure how to address this for future runs, or how to get the color maintained better
Flexo printing on film gets a bad wrap, I have seen color held better with flexo on film.

 

why not usa a PMS color instead of a 4 color build?

 

for last years brochure, we used a pms spot orange. the design in this area has vignettes, transparent overlapping ovals, etc.
needless to say, even with a spot, the sample brochures were all over the place on color=light yellow-to a deep orange!!

client was not happy with color variation even on that

this year color for brochure was an army green, with same blends going from black overprint to light green
PMS would not have cut it-none in the hue range--, even black overprint

we had color at press start up, and approved sample was signed

do pressmen just then hit the hammer and blast it-for an hour run-and not even check settings?
just asking

 

Could you scan and post a tiny crop of the as-printed vs. the signed press sheet showing how great the color variation is?

One person's "tiny" is sometimes another person's "huge".

My expectation would be that when the job is such that there is a press check and an ok-ed press sheet, the color should be keep pertty darn close to that.

 

sounds like you need to go to a another printer, I'm not having a shot at the printer pushing the buttons, he/she may be on a dog of a press.

 

Sometimes a press run that starts with as you say with "good balance of cmyk" can get ugly really quick once the trigger is pulled and the press run begins. There are many times that this may happen due to the fault of the pressman, or the press. For every time ive seen a job fail due to poor pressmanship ive seen color go bad for reasons that were out of the control of the pressman. For example.... were the files you supplied good working files? Did your files proof up without having to run color levels outside of the range of reasonable press adjustment? Were color corrections in prepress recommended and ignored due to cost? Was enough paper allowed for each form to actually find "color balance"? Did the press approval take a long time for each form? A pretty good indicator of a jobs ability to hold color during a run has alot to due with how quickly a form will come up to color. A really long makeready certainly can be due to inexperience on the part of the pressman, or even a press not suitable to quality print, but it can also be caused by a myriad of other things that have absolutely nothing to due with the pressman, press, or printing company. Ive seen from your profile that your in the industry. Id like to assume that being in the industry means that youve already asked yourself all these questions. Unfortunately over the years ive worked side by side with many people that had a very limited understanding of just what actually happens on press. Sometimes these people were actually in supervisory positions. Its not my intention to say that you might be one of these people but to just suggest that before you assign blame you make sure that your side of the street is clean. If in fact you can honestly say that you provided workable files, enough time, enough paper, and were reasonable with the press ok then it sounds like you have a legitimate gripe.

 

The color on the left is the sample I approved at press. The one on the right is what we got back after I left the press run and the rest printed. The one in the middle is also supposed to match the one on the left. They are all supposed to match, and I have a signed proof of the middle one that does match.

It is a cymk build so, I know there will be some variation, but c'mon man! Client is NOT happy.

 

ok now pacman youve shown us all the color variation of the job which i will agree would constitute unacceptable delivery. But you never did address any of the questions i asked. Seeings how this was a 4/c build you do know that any one of the 4 colors out of density by as little as 5 points could easily result in variations as your samples show. Im sure if you show the samples of variation to enough people your bound to find a few that will validate your unhappiness with the job. If you really want to be fair about things how bout responding honestly to my questions? And while your being honest let us all know just how much of the job is like this? Far too often ive encountered unhappiness with a job due to print defects to later find out that the actual percentage of the job that is defective is very small.
I think its also worthy of mention that this is the very thing thats going to happen when a printer if forced to cut pricing to the bone just to get the job. I think its time print buyers step up and accept some responsibility for sub par jobs when they know full well that they have many companies over a barrel and forcing them to price work so aggressively that jobs need to moved right along just in order to turn a little profit. Not enough time to get it right, too little paper to accurately achieve color balance, print defects, these are all things that happen when your your so price sensitive. Not to say that these things apply to you but just putting this out there for other print buyers to consider. If your expectations of your printer is that every sheet is a Rembrandt then be prepared to pay accordingly!!!

 

I have no idea how much of the job is like this turbotom. They are the retain samples sent to client-about 25-they all looked the same so I assume they where pulled at end of run--I guess.
I do not purchase, so I have no idea on pricing issues you direct at me. Printer is pre-determined and has been a long time.
Took less than 10 minutes to get dialed in at sign off for initial jobs. Pressman adjusted settings a few points on the first items I approved, then recorded those setting for the other runs, they were "dialed in" to those settings for the other approvals done. Those were easy to approve because color was right there for those checks.
"If it looks still looks green its ok" is not an excuse.

 

you mentioned how this job took all day and that each run took about an hour. was this all the time the pressman was aloud to have or was this how long the pressman took. kinda sound like this was a rush job that had to get done no matter what. why not allow a little more time on press to do it right. "there is never time to do it right but there is always time to do it over" seems to be too common in the industry now a days. greens are a ***** as a 4 color build. as turbotom said as little 5 point off can make a difference. yes there are some pressman who dont give a crap but not many. you mentioned how you have done this job twice with the same results each time. are you trying to run this job on a press that just is not up to the task? is this thing being run on a ryobi 3304 when it should be run on a 40 inch?

 

Actually no, I said in the above posts that last time the brochure was a spot color orange, and that varied just about as much as this green cmyk did.
The ones that I scanned were done the same day, by the same pressman.

Other jobs in this series were done on different days of the week, which I attended also. So I'm sure a post will come back saying I screwed that process up somehow, and even though the printer scheduled the runs, I should have done this or that

I can easily start to see where this thread is going, (audience)!
Thanks for feedback

 

i hope you dont think that any one is blaming you, because i dont think that is the case. the point being made is that there are so many variables as to what could of happened. i understand what you are saying. if the one that was ran last year varied and the ones just ran varied and they were ran at the same shop or by the same pressman, that that should tell you something.

 

pacman if you perceive this thread to be going in a direction that puts you at fault then may i suggest that you took the same attitude with your printer when trying to find a resolve to your issue with this job. I was not trying to point any fingers at you but merely trying to open your mind to the possibility that perhaps things like this can be affected by more than just poor pressmanship. Many times if seen printers blamed for sub par jobs when in fact sub par files were supplied, or sub par paper was supplied. As an example ill give you a for instance. Not saying that this is how it went but just that ive seen it go this way in the past with other clients....
you ask for a quote on a job from your printer. He quotes a job with a really sharp pencil.... The quote winds up still too high and the printer is asked by the client what can a do to get the price down some more? The printer offers a downgrade in paper quality so that he can lower the price. The downgraded paper causes press problems that require frequent stop and go to clean the plates or the blankets.... all this stop and go makes for poor color control. On a job with a four color screen build this constant stop and go makes for variations in one or more of the colors. If color consistency on this screen build was so important then id suggest for future runs that you run it as a 5th color. Not to say that a 5th color wouldnt be immune to color variations but i think youd have a better shot at keeping it consistent!!! Was it suggested that you print the job as 5 colors as opposed to 4? Were there any other suggestions that the printer made to you regarding your files or anything else that could have made the job a little easier? If you ignored such suggestions then it wouldnt be fair to blame your printer for how the job turned out. If the suggestions were never made and in fact everything was right from a production standpoint then shame on your printer and perhaps your due for a rerun. Quality printing doesnt happen by accident or by saying a Hail Mary as your job is being printed. Quality printing starts with good files and production choices. A quality sheet is important.
You posted your experience seeming to look for validation that you received a bad printing job. I was just looking for a little more information than you were offering before i validated your gripes. Your printer may have very well been at fault and may owe you a rerun but i wouldnt suggest that without knowing all the facts. Perhaps you can show this thread to your printer and allow him or her to respond to all this. Perhaps your printer would have a few things to add that youve ommited.

 

color variables

Everyone looks at density at press, according to Felix Brunner "90% of color variation is caused by "dots" . . .10% is caused by density. I'd bet they never measured dot gain or gray balance.
Density references ink film thickness, so you need to be close to target density AND dot gain BEFORE you sign off. . .if the numbers are high or low. . . but you "like" the color . .it won't hold. danremaley@comcast.net "Google Me"

 

I would never run that kind of job as a 4 col, it only needs one color off by 4 points to give you that variation, I doubt even a closed loop color control could keep it to proof spec either?

You have to run that amount of coverage as a spot.


All in my opinion, of course.

 

The right way to go:
Use a cip file on a calibrated press to get to your starter sheet.
use a densitometer to define if you are right in Density spec.
If you are right and it is not what the customer wants - send him back to prepress
if he is happy , make sure the amount of ink you put on the rollers is the same amount your sheets take away , as then you are stable and you will have less variations.
Now start printing.
use the densitometer to check if you are stable or moving up/down and fix it before it runs away too far.
Generaly - if you want to print process colors and yet get a logo color that is the same on all pages.... go look for another profesion - this is not right - jump off a steeming train - it is safer.....

 

the first part was for the right way to go on press , but is it possible from the financial point of view ?
do you give you printer the time to spend , the quality paper ? the return on his time on press ?
is your file realy what you want or did you approve it on screen ?
so many problems can be avoided on press if planed ahead....
So much better work can be done if the printer is not running to beet the clock as his time is worth money and clients do not like paying for that time.....

 

I just read through this, Hope Packman is not even nearer to his goal..

Every one try to justify give reasons for job not getting enough time/cost, basically, if a pressman accepts the downgraded price, unless he specifies corresponding downgrading of job quality before accepting, he should re run the job.

A Medical Practitioner, do not downgrade his quote or his quality of medication, he just can't do it....? No one argues over his pricing. Why should a press man be different? If he accepts low paying , High Quality jobs he has to pay from his pocket. But sadly that's the situation all over the world. To change this, Pressman has to decide "Not to accept Hig end jobs for low end margins". - You can't get good print quality with poor paper and in a rush time.

The same should be made clear to print buyer's. "WHAT YOU GET IS WHAT YOU PAY"

 

Looks very much like the makeready wasn't quite complete before the run started...Meny got it right, you have to match the replenishment rate with the consumption rate inkwise. Easy enough to do on one ink for a short run but on 3 or 4... and the earlier post got it right too, greens are a ***** to print out of process. If the colour is critical then spot + process is the way to go.

If you don't get this part right then your printer would be chasing colour all the way to the finish post.

 

To me happen same... i have a quickmaster di46-4.. but i play the press with 2000 sheet... full color... but happen when this is running more or less 1100 sheet the color change... i dont like this.. because i used toyo ink and dot work ink for waterless process... but i dont have any idea for what happen this... somethings the color is good... but for more time running the press the magent is turn to be heavy... for example the face in the pciture the first sheet is good.. later is too dark and magenta... please.. somebody can say me for what happen this.?? tahn so much..?