Closed Loop Colour Control Refining CIP3 calibrations

Hi Guys,

First of all, Great Forum. Only just discovered it. It seems there are a lot of press operators!

We have a Sakurai 466SIP machine which is pretty good. We have a CIP3 program that generates CIP3 files from imposed PDF files and it works pretty good.

About 150-250 sheets per makeready. Not amazing, but not too bad too I suppose.

We're looking, perhaps in the next year, at getting a closed loop system for the press, to really hone our colour and keep it bang on.

I've read about some high end Komori, Heidelberg and perhaps KBA systems that their closed loop system actually helps to get the CIP3's calibration perfected.

Something like this:
CIP3 is run up during a makeready. It's close but not perfect. The sheets are scanned by Closed Loop and adjusted until it is perfect. The system then compares the final key settings versus the original key settings against the coverage areas in the original PDF file and then adjusts the calibration curve in the CIP3 software, to provide a more accurate cip3 file.

So that the CIP3 file 'first guess' gets better and better, the more jobs you run.

Are there any after market systems which can do that, that be retrofitted to a 2005 Sakurai 466SIP press?

At worst, has anyone run a press that has this kind of feature set? I'd like to hear more about it, if you have.

Thanks for any info guys!

 

I am a real FAN...

I am a real FAN...but i do not thing it is right in your case.
The closed loop when set up perfect , is a very good tool for long runs & packaging.

For short runs on a small press (no offence but a 466 is a small press) it is a nice tool , but not cost effective once you learn how much it costs.

To my opinion , stick to CIP3 , and if & when you buy a new& biger press , then re-considder.

Installing it on a 7 year old half size press.....wrong investment as i se it.

Good luck any way
Meny

 

Hi Meny,

Thanks for your response.

Yeah, we do lots of short runs. But we also get the longer run 100,000+ runs as well. So to tighten things up and take a lot of the guess work out of getting colour perfect I think it would be the next step for us.

But if it's able to tweak up the CIP3 so that CIP3's first guess is closer on first pull, that will benefit the shorter run work.

I have been roughly quoted 25-50K for a closed loop system, hardware, software and install. But just wanted to see if there are systems available for our press, which can do tweak up the CIP3 after every job automatically.

again, the more jobs you print, the closer first pull gets. So short run benefits. Less waste, but more importantly more make readies per day.

Someone told me that on some higher end Heidelbergs, once the operator gets a perfect match, he presses a button and that then updates the CIP3 - and even the colour profile back in prepress (which would be a totally different kettle of fish no doubt)

What's available by 3rd party vendors?

 

Hi Again

as far as i know , none of the scanning & closed loop systems is built by any of the press builder's - all are 3rd party like Xrite.

When you have a Komori or a Heidelberg , you are better off as you have both stalillity of your ink train and damps (Komori is better by far out of the 2) - so you get excellent results from your closed loop system.
As on Sakurai it is not as stable , i think when you calculate mainly short runs and on a press that is not state of the art (sorry , no offence) , it will be money down the drain.

A new system is max 30000 Euro installed
used you can get for around 20000 $ , but hey . remember some one paid for it more and is now getting rid.....

Getting the best results for your money would be improving your working methods so you are as stable as possible , accurate in any means and then you can get the best result from CIP3 ..nothing elss needed.

Good luck , and if you ned help on that,,,,,, give me a call

Best regards

Meny
Menybor@yahoo.com

 

So do you know of any systems that have a auto-learning feature like I spoke of?

 

self learning curve

Yes i do know systems that have a self learning curve , but again . this is good for a press that is fully controlled and very stable so it can keep all spec very very accurate. this is not the kind of press you have , not the kind of proccess that will work on it.
Sorry to say again , this will be (for you) money down the drains

You can still get more out of CIP3 and get a good result with 50-60 sheets , but even this will require that you keep your press in mint condition and super accurate , or the small changes you need to make will never reflect on the job as you will have other changes comming & going all the time...
Meny

 

Closed loop colour control will be a waste of money and time for short run jobs.

You can easily update your cip3 profile yourself by fine tuning it.
Print job, possibly with duct keys slightly adjusted to hit colour
Send cip3 for that job to the memory area of console
Compare the duct key numbers to what you ended up with to hit colour
tweak cip3 profiles and send to memory area again, compare and tweak until you have the same key numbers.

Do this over a range of jobs throughout the week and you will get very close to colour with out having to tweak duct keys.

Meny is correct, Unless your press is super stable and maintained 100% you will never have consistent accurate colour.

Pitty Managers & bosses dont realise this!! All they have in there head is what was written in the sales brochure for the machine (colour within 30 sheets). But fail to recognise that years of them not fixing issues with the machine stifle any accuracy.
Currently on most jobs I'm allowed 50 - 100 sheets as overs. These sheets are to be used for colour/fit makeready + still have some overs out of those sheets with correct colour & fit for bindery.
Then if and when you get questioned as to colour consistency issues you feel like banging your head against the wall

 

Yeah, the last couple of days I have changed my approach to adjusting the CIP3 and it's very similar to what you said Luke. Very few adjustments.

One thing that both of you have said doesn't seem to make sense in regards to Closed Loop colour. The press needs really stable? If the press is that stable, why would you need closed loop colour?

Would not a press which is not stable, require closed loop colour more, than a press that is stable?

 

You are asking me to write a book here

A stable press is one that has very good stabillity in the following points:
Ink Duct - must be very acurate and send the same amount of ink down the train all the time , and a good amount of ink in that train
Dampening system - must be very accurate and efficient

If you have the above 2 perfect , you still need to tune your press well so the amount of ink coming out of the duct and delivered to the plate will always be the exact amount taken by the plate & transfered to the paper , or you will have too much / too less as you go , and the change can be slow / very slow.
This is when the closed loop comes in to help - it will se the small changes way befor eyou can notice them by eye , and fix them in due time.Yet if your system is not as perfect as needed , it will be workign hard and getting nowhere...


More ?
Contact direct

best regards

Meny