3304 work and tumble jobs. Are they possible

Discussion in 'Ryobi Printing Presses' started by Moonprinting, May 9, 2013.

  1. Moonprinting

    Moonprinting Member

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    We have a 3304. And for two sided work is it possible to run a fron and back on one set of plates. The jobs are 8.5 x 11. My operator says its impossible this process works on our qmdi, why not on the 3304. Any help or comments or better yet templates? We have both presstek 2340 direct to poly plate maker as well as a vector 52 direct to metal plates. Thanks in advance
     
  2. ziggy33

    ziggy33 Senior Member

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    yeah I don't see why it wouldn't work as long as you have a dryer or let the sheets sit for a bit before running them back thru depending on your ink. Your operator sounds lazy, NOTHING is impossible. You say its a 8.5" by 11" sheet that is the finished product you can run one front and one back on a 11" by 17" or a hair larger if bleed then run them back thru using the opposite end for gripper. I run things like this all the time its the most productive way I think.
     
  3. FFR428

    FFR428 Senior Member

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    Of course it's possible. I run work and tumble jobs every day. I put the heavier coverage towards the gripper if possible. Why does he say it's not possible?
     
  4. Moonprinting

    Moonprinting Member

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    With a max image size of 17.24 and you need marks and bars he claims he can't get the sheet to tumble and line up. So he has to make one set of plates for the front and one for the back
     
  5. FFR428

    FFR428 Senior Member

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    I got used to running without color bars a LONG time ago. He can add a GATF scale if he needs something. When I ran large format that's all we used then too. If it didn't fit we'd run without it.
     
  6. Moonprinting

    Moonprinting Member

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    I guess I'll have to figure out the correct sheet size to make the tumble happen. And I will take the suggestion of skipping the bars
     
  7. FSA

    FSA Senior Member

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    Moonprinting
    If he says it's impossible, then i do the impossible every time i work on the 3304. No drier, just good ink water balance ! If your operator gives you greef, I would be glad to show him up. But i'm sure there are alot of operators out there to replace him and not the machine.

    FSA
     
  8. Moonprinting

    Moonprinting Member

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    Could you email me a template in a PDF or InDesign so I can show this guy?? He reads the manual and it is confusing. Max sheet size is 17.72 and max image size is 17.24 with a gripper of .31. If you subtract .31 from the sheet size its 17.41. Which doesn't leave enough room on tail side for .31 space to tumble.

    Thanks
     
  9. FFR428

    FFR428 Senior Member

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    Most of the Ryobi's I've run (3302 and 3304DI) had a 18" max paper length and you can fudge that a smidge to 18.250". You can squeek a 13" paper width too. But 12" to 12.500" is the norm. That won't get you more image area but will give you a bit more paper room. For bleeds what kind of spacing do you have in the center? You can use like .125" or less if needed. Some guys setup with .250 gutter in the center which is a bit much to me. For non bleed jobs use chop cuts. We would normally run most 4/4 process jobs on 12x18.
     
  10. Moonprinting

    Moonprinting Member

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    This is my feelings 12 x 18 sheet he just comes back at me with max image size is 17.24. The manual backs that number up. So he backs me into a corner
     
  11. Moonprinting

    Moonprinting Member

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    It is a 3304 ha or presstek 4995 this one has the stream feeder if that matters
     
  12. FSA

    FSA Senior Member

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    So have you done a print test to see how much printable image area each unit has? The 3304 that I run unit two is the shortest at 17. 32 and unit four is the longest at 17.44. There is a "sweet spot" where the image needs to be on the plate, it is around (Not knowing your press) 13/16" down from the lead edge of the plate. Run paper size of 12.45 x 18 (that way you get a back trim), normal bleeds off the sides, but only a .030" bleed top and bottom, a .115" colour bar in the centre, that wat you can get just a tick of a mark at the top and bottom. I've been using this bases for years, some presses the "sweet spot" is higher and some lower, thats why you need to do a test to see where your press sits. Make a plate with a ruler image from lead edge to tail, set the clamps to the middle of the movement and test away to find your "sweet spot". Hope that helps.

    FSA
     
  13. ziggy33

    ziggy33 Senior Member

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    I agree with FSA my 3302 has a sweet spot at 17.43. I rarely have to do anything that big but I can, I didn't use the ruler trick but that would have been easier then printing and just maxing out stuff to see where you loose things. It sounds to me like your pressman doesn't wanna actually work or he is a press operator not a real printer, anyone can run a press but it takes a good set of eyes and a brain to actually print. You should tell your pressmen its your way or the highway they seem to be wasting alot of your time and money by not tumbling.
     
  14. muske99

    muske99 Member

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    I did this for my Hamada 234

    Give operator a plate with a line from top to bottom (length wise) - run an 18 inch sheet ( or as long of length as it will run) and see what the exact image length is - then you know - In my case - Image longer then specs show - maybe the case for your press

    If I run process - I put color bar in center of sheet and targets on the sides
     
  15. spikeboy

    spikeboy Senior Member

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    that guy needs to find another trade we tumble on every press as long as the stock is evenly cut no isssues put the mark center of sheet and go
     
  16. discountprintingservice

    discountprintingservice Senior Member

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    The maximum sheet size is 17.75" and the maximum image area is 17.24/17.25". The gripper margin is 5/16" (0.3125" or 8mm). If you split or fold the sheet size of 17.75 in half that is 8.875" which is your center point for flipping jobs gripper to tail. If you subtract your gripper margin from the top 8.875" of the sheet that leaves you 8.5625 inches of image area from the gripper margin to the center of the sheet. That 8.5625" minus an 8.5" sheet leaves you 0.0625" (that is 1/16") for bleed. If you split that you have 1/32" for the top bleed and 1/32" for the bottom bleed. Now from the center of the sheet to the tail you have the entire 8.875" for printing as you can print right to the very tail edge of the sheet, but the image has to be positioned correctly (to the sheet center) to line up with the top image when flipping gripper to tail. With that said I would run the bottom half with 1/32" bleed top and bottom of the 8.5" image and but it right up to the center of the sheet as well like the top, then the rest of the bottom of the sheet gives you plenty of room for color bars at 0.3125" or 5/16". Here is how it all adds up:

    Gripper 5/16" (0.3125") + bleed 1/32" (0.03125") + image 8 1/2" (8.5") + bleed 1/32" (0.03125") + bleed 1/32" (0.03125") + image 8 1/2" (8.5") + bleed 1/32" (0.03125") + color bars 5/16" (0.3125") = 17.75" subtract the 5/16" gripper (0.3125") and that leaves you your 17.25" image area.

    So in other words you CAN work and turn (2) 8.5"x11" images with full bleed on all four sides and color bars all day long if your bleed is correct and everything is in the correct position. This does mean however that there is no room for error when setting up templates for this in prepress. I recommend doing your page layout without the 5/16" gripper at the lead edge as my CTP image the plate low the amount of gripper if I include it in our template. Doing it this way our sheet is almost perfectly center lead to gripper with the vertical adjustments set to "0" on both towers.

    Also, it is wise to run at least 3 targets on each side of the sheet (op and non-op sides) at gripper, center and tail, and you can run more bleed on the sides but I don't see it as necessary being it will be cut away just waste ink particularly on longer runs. We made our own custom color bars in Illustrator that has CMYK bars for the tail of the sheet and on each side (op & non op) we have targets, dot area percentage patches for each color and gray balance bars. There is plenty of room on our 12"x17.75" sheet for this. This is all in one Illustrator image so it is easily placed into any template using 12"x17.75" sheet sizes.

    On a side note, the Presstek brochures have the image area at 17.25" printed in their brochures where the Ryobi's say 17.24" but all of these machines are the exact same specs for image size as they all came from Ryobi manufacturing, this includes the Ryobi 3302, 3302M, 3302H, 3302HA, 3304, AB Dick 9995, Itek 3995, Presstek 4995 series of presses.
     
  17. FSA

    FSA Senior Member

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    Hey discountprintingservies. Not sure what press you run but all the ryobi presses I have run will take an 18" sheet no problem, and if anyone does the print length test, chances are they will find the press will print longer than 17.21 which is spec in my 3304 manual.
    And for your info I have run 18.5" through the press
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2014
  18. discountprintingservice

    discountprintingservice Senior Member

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    Yes FSA, it is common place that this is done in the field but in most cases the in-feed timing and sometimes other adjustments have to be adjusted different than manufacturer specs to achieve this. To long of a sheet can cause registration and feeding issues if the sheet doesn't get to the head stop in time to jog correctly or doesn't clear the sucker tubes or head stops before the next sheet when using a sheet longer than manufacturer specs. This can also can cause marking issues on the tail of the sheet or a buckle in sheet transfer points. Sometimes this is only noticeable on certain papers, heavy stocks or at high press speeds. This change in the in-feed timing can cause other issues too including premature wear of mechanical parts in the feeder and I personally don't recommend it. The specs are what they are for a reason, but if it works for you great.

    Something else that has not been discussed here is the correct plate thickness & packing as well as blanket thickness & packing and pressure adjustments between plate to blanket and blanket to impression. An image can print longer or shorter than it actually is by altering the plate, blanket or packing thicknesses as well as incorrect pressures. If everything is set to factory specs the measurements I gave above are seldom off.
     
  19. ziggy33

    ziggy33 Senior Member

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    Discountprintingservice, Not always are the factory specs correct for your individual press. Although factory specs is a good place to start but every press has its own quirks. If your press is timed correctly an 18" sheet will go through without any marks, I've ran a few 18.25" so i could cut off the gripper and this ran fine without any tweaking to the infeed timing. All the 3302's I've worked on are all capable of this. I've also been told you can only get a 5/16" gripper which is also false i can get 1/4" out of my one, but the other one i have only has 9/32" so it all depends on your press!
     

  20. discountprintingservice

    discountprintingservice Senior Member

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    Again, if it works for you great, but the major components of these machines are made to the same factory exact tolerances, most adjustments on these presses were engineered to have a tolerance of +1/-0 mm (milimeters), ask any factory trained Ryobi technician and they will tell you the same thing...There is a reason as why you can't get the 1/4" gripper on the one press, and the one you are getting 1/4" on either has some wear or you have something out of adjustment which will almost always cause premature wear of parts over a long period of time. Many printers treat them as if they are disposable, meaning they run them however they need to, not maintaining them like they should be until they break & call the tech, or when the tech tells them how much to fix or that it can't be and they replace it with another one...seen it many many times over my 25+ year career

    Also, to prove my point if you measure the image length of the impression cylinder of these presses it will valid this. Measure from the lead edge of the sheet to the tail of the round part of the cylinder, not the beveled cuts at the gripper and tail...
     
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