Polar EM 76 issue

Discussion in 'Cutters and Trimmers' started by djmicko, Feb 7, 2015.

  1. djmicko

    djmicko Member

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    Hello everybody.

    I have Polar EM 76 cutter, and have an issue with it, starting a few months ago. In a short way, I will try to describe what is the problem.
    When I turn on and start to cut, it allows me to make only a few cuts, usually first 5, and after that, everything stops, knife does not reacting on any sign, like It doesn't have command signal for cutting. Then I need to turn off cutter and continue to work next day, when it's start to happen same problem. Only a few cuts per day :(.
    So, does anybody have any idea what is the core of problem? it seams like some of the changing motherboards below knife does not working well. But it's my opinion.

    Thanks in advance, and sorry about my bad English.
     
  2. Coloured paper

    Coloured paper Senior Member

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    Hi djmicko!

    A correct answer is not so easy.
    When your problem appears and you cannot cut does the clamp works normal?
    And do you have an error message on the screen?

    Coloured paper
     
  3. djmicko

    djmicko Member

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    Hi Coloured paper!

    The clamp works fine, with no problems.
    Also, I don't have any error message on the screen.
    I'll put the video clip on YT, I think it's gonna be much easier to see what is the problem.

    Here is the link

    http://youtu.be/l2fdHeTaIqM

    As you see, first 5 cuts was working fine, and after minute or two everything stopes.
     
  4. Coloured paper

    Coloured paper Senior Member

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    Hi djmicko!

    The video is perfect. I do not see any difference of the LED’s. For all cuts its looks the same.
    All inputs have to be fine otherwise the clamp would not work or the safety bolt would give an error message. Your machine has the software version V1.0. This software does not have a timeout for the clutch activation. In other words – the control system activates the clutch but there is no reaction.
    I would ask a local electrician to check the voltage at the carbon brushes at the clutch. Usually you have more than 42 Volt d. c.
    If the voltage at the carbon brushes disappears, the electrician has to follow the circuit using the electrical diagram. The clutch is called Y33.
    The electronic board KK is activating the two relays K21a and K21b on the board KUP. And the two relays getting the clutch going.
    For this you need the correct electrical drawings for this machine. If you do not have the drawing I need the machine number and an Email address.

    Best regards
    Coloured paper
     
  5. djmicko

    djmicko Member

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    Hi Coloured paper!

    First, thank you very much for helping me, I am very appreciate it.
    I have electrical drawings for this machine. I have checked these two relays named K21a and K21b on KUP board, as you said. At the moment when knife is stop working (after a first few cuts), named relays stop working. ("Click" sound is missing), so I think it's not necessary to check the voltage at the carbon brushes at clutch, because obviously the problem is somewhere before the relays. If I am wrong, please correct me.
    Second, I replaced HK, KK and KUP boards with new ones (a friend of mine has identical cutter), but problem is still here.
    Also, I removed all the boards from machine, and cleaned all contacts, and connectors with pure alcohol, sprayed all with Contact spray and return back.
    Now, I have another problem, you will see on the video attached on YT link below.

    http://youtu.be/a1zpZ8opJeA


    Best regards,
    djmicko
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2015
  6. Coloured paper

    Coloured paper Senior Member

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    Hi djmicko!

    First some information’s regarding the error message 85. The official explanation for error 85 is:
    During a cutting cycle the control channel (card KK) will registered discrepancies at the two channels HK and IAR. Check the condigtion of all diodes on card HK and IAR. Check adjustment of the limit switches S22a and S22b at the gear box. Check adjustment of the light barrier. Exchange HK, IAR, AR, KK
    So far the official information for error 85.

    I do not believe about the gearbox limit switches. The switches do not change after some cuts. And I do not believe about the light barrier adjustment, because the clamp is working fine.
    You replaced already HK, KK and KUP. The next step would be to try the IAR and afterwards the AR board.

    @ franco
    A machine is difficult if you don’t have experience only.
    Cleaning of the carbon brushes is a perfect hint. The carbon brushes may cause crazy problems. But the actual fault appears after some cuts. This is not a problem with the carbon brushes. The brushes gives you intermittent problems or permanent trouble, but not 5 five good cuts and afterwards no more function.
    The voltage at the carbon brushes has to be at least 42V d. c. Usually it is more and you measure like 45 V d. c.
    All 76 cutters have the safety bolt! And all 76 have proximity switches at the safety bolt. If the safety bolt including the sensors giving you trouble you get other error messages like 81, 88, 92.
    In Europe it is forbidden to work on electronic boards of paper cutting machines. International laws say that’s a job for specialists only. If you have at the end an accident you (franco) will not pay, or do you take the risk? In South America hands are maybe not so important. We like our hands.

    Best regards
    Coloured paper
     
  7. Coloured paper

    Coloured paper Senior Member

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    Hi franco!

    Polar has no limitation. Polar is the specialist. We should have our limits.
    And it is not Polar which creates law. We should follow law.
    My only concern is an accident.

    You are right, the prices from Heidelberg are sometimes creative. Polar prices you don’t know.
    I am assuming some people maybe even do not pay your price, because it is too high. Everything you cannot afford is too expensive.
    Should we take risk because of money? Do you fly in an aircraft which probably falls from the sky, just because the ticket was cheap?

    Coloured paper
     
  8. finlink58

    finlink58 New Member

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    Hi Coloured Paper,
    I'm having a similar problem with Polar 76 EM Mc No 5461067 with intermittent fault knife stops on return stroke in more or less the same position every time it happens; seems to get better during the day as the machine (warms-up)?.If this is a carbon brush voltage fault what do I do can the relays be replaced?. Please advise, also I do not have the electrical drawings, can you help with this?.
    Thanks finlink58
     
  9. Coloured paper

    Coloured paper Senior Member

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    Hi finlink

    At the gearbox you have two limit switches. These limit switches initiates the upward movement of the knife. The signals from the two limit switches going to two little relays K22a and K22b. You can find this relays in a little aluminium box. You follow the cable from the limit switches and you find the aluminium box in the cable trough behind the mother board. Either the limit switches or the relays (or both) are worn out. If you change the limit switches use the same type of switches!

    Regarding the electrical drawings I need an Email address.

    Coloured paper
     
  10. finlink58

    finlink58 New Member

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    Hi Coloured Paper,
    Thank You very much for your speedy reply, I will check the machine parts that you have identified. Would this problem create a need to switch off and re set knife carriage to dead top as this is what I have to do , the display sometimes shows fault 85 and sometimes just goes off?. I've just taken apart both cutting buttons and cleaned and sprayed each; this seems to have made an improvement but is probably just a coincidence. Any more advise would be helpful, the email add is finishinglink@talktalkbusiness.net . Thanks again for your help.
    Ian.
     
  11. Coloured paper

    Coloured paper Senior Member

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    The cut buttons controlling just the downward movement of the knife. The upward movement is done be the limit switches at the gear boy and the controlling system.
    If the knife stops during the upward movement you cannot restart. You have to switch off the machine and get the knife all the way up to its home position.
    The official statement regarding the error message 85 is:
    Check gearbox limit switches and MHS.
    If this does not work change boards, etc. But your description tells as well about the limit switches.

    Coloured paper
     
  12. finlink58

    finlink58 New Member

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    Hi Coloured Paper,
    Thank You again for you response, I've now got the electrical drawings and will investigate the limit switches with a local electrician and hopefully all will be good. If you don't mind I will keep your details for any future hiccup!.

    Regards Ian.
     
  13. Coloured paper

    Coloured paper Senior Member

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    The cut buttons controlling just the downward movement of the knife. The upward movement is done be the limit switches at the gear boy and the controlling system.
    If the knife stops during the upward movement you cannot restart the cycle. You have to switch off the machine and get the knife all the way up to its home position.
    The official statement regarding the error message 85 is:
    Check gearbox limit switches and MHS.
    If this does not work change boards, etc. But your description tells as well about the limit switches.
    You should have the electrical drawings as well.

    Coloured paper
     
  14. finlink58

    finlink58 New Member

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    Hi Coloured Paper,
    Just thought I would give you an update: I found, cleaned/sprayed both limit switches which seemed to give a slight improvement, so I then moved on to the relays in the little aluminium box these I have also given a "shake" and spay with electrical cleaner. Since putting everything back together I have had trouble free days so-far, if this is to continue "top marks to you for your advice". If I were to have future problems I would start by replacing the relays- then - the limit switches, the only problem that I can see with this is that on identifying these parts they seem to be lacking any serial or specification numbers?.the relays are ERNI A1 1.3 both marked in the same way but one is bigger than the other?, the limit switches are SIEMENS and both look the same?. Do you have any specification data on any of them or equivalent replacement parts?. Many thanks again for your help and advice.
     

  15. Coloured paper

    Coloured paper Senior Member

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    Yes, the relays should be the first thing to be replaced. And I am sorry, I do not have any specification for individual components.
    There are officially to limitations for you.
    I am not sure this type of relays is still available. I think ERNI does not supply these relays anymore. There some forums in the internet for electronic freaks there could give you a hint where to search and which relay is more or less equivalent. I think there is a replacement with even the same position for the contacts.
    The second problem you have the safety law. I am very officially sure you should not look at the very complicated little board and follow the lines to make your own circuit using two other relays.
    The problem will come back. Sooner or later you two new relays.

    Good luck
    Coloured paper
     
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