What 2 color press to buy?

I am looking at buying a two color press to replace are ab dick 8970. The two i have in mind is a used Heidelberg qm 46 or a Ryobi 3302. I am not looking to print process work mostly black 1 color with some 2 color. Witch press do you guys think is a better press and has a better feeder for NCR. and what are some faults of those machines.
One last thing, how well does the plate feeder work on the qm46 work with 2 sided polyester plates?
Thanks

 

just this minute finished running 12000 sheets of ncr through my 3302 and it didnt miss a beat. and its saturday evening 7.45?????

 

My 3302 runs that sort of thing great.Recommend the press.

 

i must admit i had the which press to buy and after reading about the 3302, i run 2 colour envelopes, ncr, flyers ect and its good for the 4 colour process work. couldnt afford the 3304 but this is a great machine in my opinion as an all rounder, and ive ran a great number of different presses from solnas, hamadas heidies the list is endless. I have heard that the ab dick version 3500 has had quite a few electrical problems but not had any on my itek 3985 (rebadged 3302).

 

How hard is it to run full color on a 2 color press compared to running on a 4 c press?

 

i used to run full colour work on a single colour press, and you can kiss that day goodbye, as its the only thing youll get done that day, on a two colour press yes its harder than a four colour and takes a little more time but no where near like doing it on a single colour, and for instance on my machine i can put out 25000 +full colour flyers by lunch time leaving me the rest of the day for jobbing.

 

So obviously a 4 color press costs more than a 2 color press...would the cost difference be the reason to do 4 colors on a 2 color press and only have a 2 color press. I guess you wouldn't want to "waste" a 4 color press running 1 or 2 color jobs right?

 

in a nutshell, yes. i bought my 2 colour for £5000, a four colour machine is in the region of £20000 which i just couldnt afford and dont really do that much full colour stuff, only short runs which are done digital. Also trying to compete with internet printers on full colour is suicide as i can order 5000 full colour flyers cheaper than it would cost me to print them, especially if you add in the time factor. I do it when i have to but i would rather order jobs like that in and that leaves me to carry on with the smaller single colour or 2 colour jobs which earn alot more in profit. I think for me a 4 colour machine would have been a waste of money, but a 2 colour really solved a big problem time wise, so thats also why i bought it. Your needs and what you want to print may be different. good luck all the same

 

Thanks for the input. Given your experience with the Ryobi 3302; would you still have bought that machine today? Is that a good 2c press for a first timer?

 

yes without doubt i would buy another one, for a first timer, im assuming youve used single colour presses before its not different really accept you line up both plates in one pass. if you get one with automatic damping like varn units or crestlines even easier just put ink in run up colour and away to go. i have crestlines because it came on the press but i also love varn units...

 

never used a press myself...always outsourced or digital. I've studied some of the theory but that only goes so far.

what's a crestline?

 

if you have never used a press before, maybe you should look at something like a ab dick with a swing away head for the second colour, easiest press to use on the market, but still take along time if youve never ever printed on a press. A printing press is not something you can buy and output a sellable job on in the first hour, it takes a long while to learn why certain things happen, and what to do to cure them. Maybe you should see if anyone has got a press that you can watch an operator for a day or so first.
sorry a crestline is an automatic damping system which does exactlky the same as a varn unit.

 

So did u purchase a 3302? I think its the absolute best small press ever made. I've ran all sizes of Heildelbergs, webs, a.b.dicks, and currently pulling my hair out with a diamond envelope press. And by far the 3302 is the easiest, high quality and most durable press I've ever used. U can run 4 color with impeccable quality. Just more time to print it. I used to run #10 2-color envelopes @ 10,000/hr. Without an envelope feeder.

 

I would have to disagree. I have a 3302, AB-Dick 9840, 9870 and the Quickmaster46. The Quickmaster is by far the easiest machine to print 1 and 2 color work on. Change over is by far quicker. Wash up quicker. Blanket change quicker. As for ink migration and contamination the 3302 is superior.

 

tstruth you obviously don't run your 3302 correctly because it can run laps around your QM46 and also out last it. Not to mention parts are hell a bunch cheaper. I would put anything off my 3302 up against any other 2 color press. Hands down best 2 color made. I can do change over very quickly from 11 X 17 to #10 env in 20 mins, I can wash up in less then 20 mins, i can change a blanket in less then 2mins. Everybody always says oh Heidelberg is the best.... and yes thats true for larger presses although they just don't compete with the little guys like the 3302

 

It is not too hard if you know what you are doing and can follow some basic principals for process color printing....

First, you need a good press capable of good sheet to sheet registration and good ink/water balance control...and you need good plates preferably an CTP system with internal drum...I print high quality 4 color on a Toko R2SL 2 color using a DPX 5080 CTP system

Next you need a dot meter to linearize your plates...a 50% screen should read 50% on plate, same principal for values from 2% to 98%...if they don't make a curve in your rip with the values you do get, make another plate and test again until all values are withing +/- 2% of the desired value...this is linear...

Then you want to print patches of 2% to 98% on press in each color C,M,Y and K....run these linear plates to these densities C 1.35 M 1.45 Y 1.05 K 1.70 and measure the results, each % value should measure that value plus the proper dot gain (i.e. 50% should read 70-72 for black, 68-70 for cyan & magenta, and 66-68 for yellow)....50% will gain more that 1/4 tones and 3/4 tones....make a curve in the rip with these values do it for each individual color not one curve for all colors (this is important)....then print another set of plates to test that the curve is correct and adjust if necessary....

Once you have your dot gain correct you need to check for gray balance....print the following patches:
1. 1/4 tone black - K 25%, mid tone black - K 50%, and 3/4 tone black - K 75%
2. 1/4 tone CMY - C 25%+M16%+Y16%, mid tone CMY - C50%M40%Y40%, and 3/4 tone CMY - C75%M63%Y63%
Also run solid patches of each color and run to the ink densities mentioned above...measure the 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4 tones of CMY using all densities on your press room densitometer...if you are in gray balance CMY will all read the same - within +/- 1 is balanced i.e. C50 - M49 - Y50 would be considered balanced (ignore K - all you are looking for is a balanced CMY)...you can compare them to the corresponding black only percentages and see if it is casted (redish, yellowish or blueish)...if you are not balanced tweak your c, m and y curves in the rip at the % where you are out of balance...test again until you achieve a balanced sheet....

Once you have achieve gray balance all you need to do is print to the numbers or the ink densities above to deliver consistent process color regardless of whether you are running a 1 color, 2 color or 4 color press...


This sounds like a lot of trouble but it is something you do once, then monitor it with color bars/patches on your daily press runs to monitor for any changes or shifts in dot gain or gray balance from where you stated (your reference point)....

Following these rules you can achieve amazing results with 4 color even on small duplicator type presses!

 

whew...it all sounds so overwhelming...

 

If anyone is still interested ina nice little 2 color, a friend of mine is elling his 1983 GTOZ, it is a 52 size. Very nice condition and a solid machine.

 

If you go through the above calibration procedure then print the same job from the same plates on a 1,2, 4 colour press they will all be different. Apart from ink lift the dot gain will be different due to printing onto another blanket, the main cause of dot gain. Each configuration should have its own output curve to suit the press type.

OGR

 

I've used a Heidelberg Quickmaster 2 Color & Printmaster 2 Color also for the past 5 years and can tell you they are incredible machines. The ability to go from 11 x 17 to A2 Envelopes is a matter of 5 minutes, shutting off a few valves and using the easy cranks on the press. Super smooth running, thick frame for stability and longevity. Really simple to maintenance but you certainly must do the steps every time it needs done (which some are daily, others weekly, most every few months)

Really the only big issue I get is the ink rollers just get old and swell over time. Although this is the first time I'm replacing the First inking unit in 4 years. The back ink train is still printing great! You can find some really mint condition presses on ebay if you don't want to dive right into a brand new press. My shop bought one from a BOCES that didn't have anyone signing up for their program so they sold it to us for half the market price.

Can't say enough good about this press...I know for a fact it has done extremely well for my business and I can run small to large jobs with no problem. I trust it so much I can let it go and it just about can print the job without me even being around it.

Talk about fast cleanup... I have had times where we get a job late in the day for the yoohoo clients that want something the very next morning and I print the job quick and literally I've cleaned up 1 head in 5-10 minutes. Or 2 colors in 20-30 minutes and the press is operable for a color to be put on the next morning, grant it, I'm zooming like a chipmunk around the shop.

I just timed myself how long it took for me to eject the plate from the previous job, throw the plate away, clean my thumb up after taking the plate out, taking my pile of printed sheets and putting that job on the table, finish filling out the job jacket for that pile, put the job jacket on the table, take off the remaining 8.5 x 11 from that job off the feeder table, switch over from 8.5 x 11 to 11 x 17 in making the quick adjustments needed. I started at 11:37 am and finished all of that at 11:40 am. 3 Minutes and I'm set for printing 11 x 17. If I were to switch to envelopes - probably a matter of 3-5 Minutes. How can you not love that??

My Heidy & I, well... we're in love! We really will be when I get my new set of rollers for the first head tomorrow!!!
Sounds like the Ryobi is a good press too but haven't heard much about those. Can't go wrong with this baby!