Average Press Sheet setups?

I run a 4 color sheet fed press. I would just like an average press run for a 4 color set up. I average between 300 to 500 sheets. How about you? Just a question?

 

Wow !!!

Wow , Hiw can that be competative ?? !!!

The average is a very un-accurate number as onan old press with old stile - low technology and un-suffisticated proccess it could be as on your press 300-500 sheets , while on a new , top spec , hightech press with all otions , and the right proccess used , it could be as low as 20 sheets

So the average could be in this case 260 sheets , and i find this to be way higher then normal.

If your press is comuter controlled (ink keys) , you can reduce the setup sheets to under 100 sheets for sure , and if it is a morre advanced press , down to 50.
I assume you do not have a new 4 color Komori with KHS-AI and JDF proccess, right ?
So you can not go down to 20 sheets , but you can reduce it big time.
Costs a little , but pay's off very quick.

What pres are you running ? (and how)
Meny
menybor@yahoo.com

 

50-100 on my 6 color....

 

Dear aqazi81
When you work without CIP files for your make ready and with out Pre-inking & de-inking , you can get a basic level of quality , but you can not get top quality jibs done in 50-100 sheets.
To do that , you need the tools that are not common in Pakistan , so i assume , the basic level of quality your customers are looking for is somehow lower then the one looked for by an American customer or a European one.
We still have no knowledge of the kind of press he is using and his level of technology , but i am guessing you do not use CIP/KDF files for your make ready in Pakistan. am i wrong ?

 

you are right Meny... quality level here that is acceptable by the customer is much lower than the countries from you are... but on the other hand the presses that we use are also pretty old...

 

Whether you use 50 or 500 sheets the cost difference is negligeable. The question should be more about the nature of the make-ready in reference to achieving fit, color, color stability, in an efficient manner in a given period of time. From hanging plates to color running if you make two pulls in an hours time in 50 sheets what did you save in sheets compared to time? If the machine has difficulty achieving color running status, yes, 500 sheets per/ job in an hour or two is wasteful and frustrating. Komori quotes 10 jobs of 200 sheets per hour, can you run 13 hours at a time everyday like that? and why would you want too ? also when running 16000 IPH for a few million imps, what does the amount of make-ready sheets matter?
"work smarter, not harder"
Avg. 4c M/R 250 shts 1/2 hour plate hang to color run, 1995 Komor NL640+aqC w/KMS lll no cip3 integration

 

well, it's about time

I agree that if you run very long jobs , setup time is nothing to worry about , but some print very short jobs.
I have customers with avarage jobs of 500 sheets - in this case it is important , paper & timewise.
And if you are a commone commercial printer , it is about time you install a CIP3 solution and make your Komori more effective.
Talk to me - i have a very good offer in this matter

Meny
menybor@yahoo.com

 

seriously now ! *Rant*

in regard to the OP:
You mean to tell me you want to broker a press from Israel to the U.S., as if there is not plenty of equiptment available here, being much more fiscally feasible to transport, install, and have support on a locally/national level. Get out.
In regard to me:
For the shop I currently work in, CIP3 would not institute efficiency for a variety of reasons, nor, as I had alluded to in the previous post does it neccessarily equate to better efficiency production numbers due to shorter make ready sheets. Most "time" is lost in the floor work, not always in press speed, and cannot be made up in press speed.

You must be making more in recycled Aluminum than you are on the job

when plates are charged to a client at an average of 100% more than cost, what is a mere few hundred sheets charged to the client at a cost of .20c US for a
1018mm sheet. The "Old School" estimate for non CIP3 machines has been 200 sheets/color/side for S/W jobs. Being "competative," is not always about physical costs of materials, unless you keep having to put the job back on press because of spoilage and shortage, due to increased demand to be miserly in material supply in the first place.

*End of Rant*

To the OP: 300-500 sheets is not too overly consumptive given an older SM with the early CP-tronic. Might try posting in the Hberg forum to get a better perspective from operators with your specific equiptment to see if you're struggling with something particular with your machine or a general need to hone some M/R skills.
Good Luck

 

I wrote you a long answer , but for some reason it did not come up on the site - this time i will write less

No , i did not try and sell you a press from Israel to the US , i did not think you are looking for one , but if you do , i cab get you presses that are not on the open market direct from the US.

I have no idea on the kind of press the gent who started this post has. it could be a 4 color roland RVK with no RCI , or it could be an old Heidelberg with no CPC or a Ryobi without a consul....but he did not reply on that.

An old school press with no ink key controll from consul could take 300-500 sheets to get right
A "Normal" press with ink key controlls can take 125-150 sheets , and if it has CIP3 it can go down to 60 sheets for a good result.
A new Komori with KHS-AI &CIP3-JDF can get down to 20-30 sheets every job.

If you have long runs - no an issue , but if you have short runs , it is a big time saver and saves well on your stock too.

If you print thick plastic or metaic board , this saving could be a game winner/looser.
So i agree with you on some , and disagree on other points.

As i understand you have no CIP solution on your Komori , i can offer you a very good solution for a very low price , fully lisenced and last version to suit all market technologies.

This i can do very effective over the network and for a very good price worth looking at.

Meny
menybor@yahoo.com

 

Meny,
This is salesman trick. KhS-AI, CIP3 these are all very useful tools, but on a rel jobs you can forget about 20-30 sheets per make ready. It will work for very similar or low quality jobs, but if you have to be on color from first to last sheet, forget it. There is too many differences in ink fountain from monday morning to, let's say wednesday evening.For Heidelberg after deinking and preinking and get to stable color if you have dE<5, it's OK. But stable color for B1 Heidelberg is after 130 sheets. And dE =5 is NOT OK especially for high quality jobs. I don't believe that Komori will achieve stable color and dE<1 for 20-30 sheets. And I told you this because I used to work on LS429 with KHS, CIP3 and etc.

 

Rasman49, I have run a 4 color Komori for years. it runs a 26"x 40" sheet. It is an older model press, mostly manual operated not computer. I tend to save my setup sheets and use them a few times before trashing them. If you average around 300 sheets, you are in good standing. by reusing setups you can lower your amount even more, if you desire. We average around 250 - 350 depending on ink coverage. Many of the expert printers I know (on older machines ) get around 250 setups.

 

KHS and similar systems depend on standardisation of everything in the process. Repro, platemaking, press chemistry and ink, press settings, temperature and humidity to name a few things. If these are constant then you can achieve 20 sheet set ups. I know because I was involved in the developement of it. Unfortunately that level of consistency day to day is not achievable in most print shops. If you can average 50-100 you will be doing ok in my experience, the 20 sheet make ready every time is largely sales ********. You don't even need KHS with pre/de inking, you can replicate what it does easily if you understand printing and what KHS/similar system actually does in terms of stripping ink and feeding ink. The biggest aid to make ready for the modern pressman is CIP3 files direct to press but even this isn't the holy grail. For example the differential between ink sweep and key opening needs to be managed dependant on ink type, chemistry etc. All these aids are useful but a good press minder is the most impotant tool you can get.
YG

 

2 Petar, He is a salesman.

 

KHS-AI and other options

You are right about the need to keep high standard and accuratlly setup press to get the best out of the systems (KHS-AI) , but it is the same with every proccess in life.
If you want to get your Ferari to give you the full power as in the show room or in the racing field , you can not expect to get it if you feed you engin with low quality dirty fule....right ?

If you want to get the max out of the Komori press , you need to stick to high standards - that is right. on the other hand , when you not only save paper but save time , ink and power , you gain more from your investment....

I can tell you about 2 customers i have who have KHS-AI on the same press.
one will get to a commercially acceptable high quality copy in 20 sheets every time , while the other will need 600-700 to get running.

the first one keeps his press in top condition and fully updated and callibrated , when the other one only prints....

As for CIP3 - this is almost a must if you want to get more out of your press , not only save on paper , but save time & money.

If you have it and you use your press right , you can do wonders with your time.
If you do not , you need to have a very good operator and he will still strugle to keep in competition.

Every one makes his own callculation , what i can offer is the help in getting a good CIP3 system for a very good price for who ever wants it.
If Mr aqazi81 has no interest , he can go on workign in the manual way - i realy do not feel bad about it.
Am i a sales person ?
If it was an insult from your side , my froend , it did noit work at all.
Yes . i do sell stuff for a living , and as poeple buy from me , i can assume they are happy with the value of what they pay for.
But the most important product i have for sale is knowledge , only after that come the products.

Mr qazi81 is unhappy with the fact that i do not agree to give him all he wants for free so attempts to insult... that is foine , be my guest and enjoy

 

Meny, it's not an insult, it's your job to convince people to buy your machines.
In most of the printing companies there is no time to keep the machine in top condition, everyone wants the machine in PRINTING condition all the time. And one question, what means top condition for you?

 

This is plain MATH - invest a little in maintenence , gain more in production

When i say TOP condition i do not mean cleanning the covers...

Keep your ink ducts clean and at the right "0" settings (15 min a week)
Keep your dampenning system clean and stable , with the right spec of water at all times
keep your blankets in good condition and right packing
keep your pressure right and not over...

Keepping the press well greased and clean is for your own good ...not mine...

But when you do not keep your ducts well , change water only when you can't print any more and your blankets when down and lost all flex.... then you harm your work proccess, and you can do less work and need more efforts...

The KHS-AI talked about is worth nothing if you do not keep the rulls of de-inking and pre-inking and if you do not update the system by pressing a single button onse you are happy with the result.
But if you do so , and update the system having your press in good printing condition , you will gain shorter make ready times , less paper waist and better production results.

Think - do i say so so i can sell you a new Komori with LHS-AI ?
NO , as i can not sell a new Komori in your country - that is for the local dealer only... so what reason do i have to act as a "sales person" and sell you my ideas ????

This is plain advise , nothoing elss.
CIP files help yopu save big time , KHS-AI helps even more
Use them and gain more
don't use them and you gain less....simple

Meny

 

on a good day 100 sheets, on a bad 200+ depends on how i feel and whether i just say bolox and get a coffee instead.

 

Why not try out technology that's available ?

Why not simply try ?
Take your time with a few jobs , run them using CIP3 input (this is if your press has a consul to controll ink) , see for your self how quick (or slow) it is to get to your required quality (different printers / jobs , different quality requested) and then make up your mind if it is good technology for you or not.

You do not need to buy the cow to drink a glass of milk - we can supply you online with the CIP3 files for your jobs & presses , and if it is good for you we can in future supply cost effective CIP3 solutions.

Good luck
CIP3 service team
cip3service@yahoo.com

 

CIP3 services?????

 

Yes sir
We have an automated system that takes in files from your CTP / CTP system and converts them to CIP3 files to suit your presses , what ever they are , as long as they have a consul.
This is a service , fully automated that works 24/7.

Some poeple are requested to invest 30000 Euro to get the capabillity to do it at home so they do not use the technology.
We enable them to get in to a smart workflow by paying a small token for each file , and once they are sure it is good for them we offer them a very cheap solution (complete solution for any press with a consul!)

Good day