Need help with sakurai 574EPII

Discussion in '4-Color Offset Presses +' started by Hardware, Oct 1, 2010.

  1. Hardware

    Hardware Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2010
    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    Indonesia
    Hello,

    I have Sakurai 574EPII with automatic plate changing, sakurai precision control, alcolor dampening and now have printing problem.
    First, the print result is slant / tilt compare to paper and not the same between unit 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5. Can I change position of pin register to solve the problem ? The result is same if not using pin register. I try to make plate with ctp, but still have the same problem.
    Second, if I print unit 1 2 times, unit 2 2 times, unit 3 2 times, unit 4 2 times and unit 5 2 times, individually, the register is perfect. But if I print 2 unit or more just 1 time, the print register is not good. The second unit printing result will slant / tilt compare with the first unit. And compare to print result when I print individually for the second unit, it will more slant / tilt.
    Any suggestion and advice is appreciate. Thank you .
     
  2. Meny

    Meny Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2008
    Messages:
    773
    Location:
    Israel
    I think you need to learn how to operate this press

    I find it hard to grab your pres has bad register - i think you need some basic training !
     
  3. Hardware

    Hardware Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2010
    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    Indonesia
    Well, this is my first time use machine with auto plate changing. Usually I used Heidelberg GTOV 52, Komori Sprint 426, Ryobi 524 and never find problem like this. My first think about the problem is about cocking function. In manual plate changing, I can cocking plate in clamp plate even if mis register (tilt/slant) is about 1 mm. But with this machine, I can't set in clamp plate. And when using SPC, I can cocking only -0.15 to + 0.15. Then I think the problem is plate. So I make plate with CTP, but the result is the same. Since I don't have any experience using auto plate changing, perhaps in this forum I can get advice how to use it and how to solve my problem.
     
  4. Meny

    Meny Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2008
    Messages:
    773
    Location:
    Israel
    let me try & guide you

    start with a good set of accurate ctp plates
    before you put them on the press put all units to "0" position on your PQC.
    only now put on your plats.
    is the register good ?
    if not , the "0" position of the clamps can be altered but this is not a "user" job.
    let's take it step by step.
     
  5. Hardware

    Hardware Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2010
    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    Indonesia
    I already make plate with ctp 2 times to make sure if plate is good. I already set to "0" position on PQC and check at the machine all the unit if the position is the same for every unit. But register still no good. For information, If I set all position to zero, not only the print result is slant / tilt but the lateral and circum is not the same. For your information, I notice something that maybe important. If I print ie. unit 4 only than I print unit 4 with unit 3, or unit 2 and 4, than print result at unit 4 is different. The unit 4 print result if I print with other unit will more slant than just unit 4.
    Thank you Meny for giving me advice. I'm waiting for your next guide.
     
  6. Meny

    Meny Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2008
    Messages:
    773
    Location:
    Israel
    If you are sure you did all operational side right , ...

    If you are sure you did all operational side right , and still get wrong register that can not be fixed , you might need to get a mechanical engineer to check your cylinder position and transfare rutine between the units.
    the essence of a printing press is to print at good register.... if that is not right on your press , have someone check it.

    what is your location ?
    do you have good engineers over there ?
     
  7. rolandman

    rolandman Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2009
    Messages:
    254
    Location:
    UK
    i have never Worked on Sakurai Presses but i can try to Help.
    When you say at a Slant i assume you mean Crooked. On the Pins do you see any Allen key nuts in oder to Adjust the Position of the Pins? if so you us these to Change the Pins. other than that i cant think of how it can be done
     
  8. Hardware

    Hardware Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2010
    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    Indonesia
    To Meny
    I'm from Indonesia. My machine is secondhand from Japan. I believe that my machine is the only one in Indonesia, so I think no engineer have experience for this machine. I heard that they sold a lot in United State. For cylinder position, I think it's ok, because there are scale for each function near cylinder inside cover and for all unit it's show the same position. For transfer rutin what should I check ?
    What make me confuse is I can print each unit 2 times with good register (but slant compare to paper). So in my opinion, the gripper tension, paper transfer timing should be ok.
    In machine that use auto plate changing, is the print result for lateral, circum and cock should be same if we assume the image in plate is exact for each plate ?

    To Rolandman
    Yes you right. On the pins there's 2 allen key nuts. Is it ok to adjust the pin position ?
     
  9. Meny

    Meny Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2008
    Messages:
    773
    Location:
    Israel
    Hey Hey Hey

    Just read the whole thing from the start and noticed the P.

    do you get register between the units before the perfector ?
    do you get register between the units after the perfector only ?

    if you do and the problem is between the units before / after the perfector you could use a bearring service to the perfector - that could be the reason - movment on the bearings.

    this could allso be the reason the press was sold......

    try & let me know
     
  10. Hardware

    Hardware Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2010
    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    Indonesia
    Oliver 574 EPII have perfector cylinder between unit 1 and 2. So I think if you want to print 4 color that's mean you have to use unit 2, 3, 4, and 5.
    The print result slant compare to paper in all unit and the slant not the same if compare to each unit. But if I print 2 times for each single unit (ie. I print unit 3 only and after the paper print, I put the paper again to feeder and print again), the result is register. But if I print between unit, any unit (ie. print unit 2 and 3 or 1 and 2 or 2 and 5) the result is not register. If I'm using SPC to set the circum and lateral, I can make one side to register, and other side not and I can't make it register using cocking function on SPC because the slant different is too big.

    I try what Rolandman suggested and it's work. I adjusted the pin and I can make the print result not slant compare to paper. But only if I print single unit.
    If I print 4 color (in unit 2 to 5), the print result will slant again for unit 3, 4 and 5 but not unit 2. The most slant is in unit 5. Before I print 4 color, I already make sure that print result for each unit is not slant. I try to print again for each single unit only and yes, it's not slant.

    To Meny, It's that mean the bearing still ok ?

    What should I do next ?
     
  11. rolandman

    rolandman Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2009
    Messages:
    254
    Location:
    UK
    The Best thing to do, is Adjust the Pin Position Acording to what will make it Print Straight not Crooked and then Once you have done that, Adjust the Front Lays if its printing Crooked according to the Sheet
     
  12. Hardware

    Hardware Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2010
    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    Indonesia
    print result

    This is my picture of print result
     

    Attached Files:

  13. Hardware

    Hardware Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2010
    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    Indonesia
    in that picture now I try to print using unit 1 to 4 and the result is same. For unit 1 I'm using plate unit 5 and brown color. I print 4 color and then compare to every single color. You can see that the print result for 4 color is different compare to each single unit except brown color.

    To Rolandman, you mean I should adjust the pin when I print 4 color, not 1 color ?
     
  14. rolandman

    rolandman Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2009
    Messages:
    254
    Location:
    UK
    Hi, What i think your problem is, is the Plate cocking doesnt let you cock the Plate enough to get a good Register so below is what you should do.

    1) Put 4 (or5) Plates on the Machine, peferably with a CTP, Make sure when your Puting the Plates on the Pins you Dont Push the Plate down too much and Damage the Hole on the plate, but make sure you have put right on the Pins

    2)Print and make sure all Registers are Set to Zero on the Console And make sure the Plates havn't Been Swung.

    3)Print, and Try to Find the unit which is Printing the Straightest. Now One By One Without adjusting any register on the Console, Start Adjusting the pins on Each unit to get the Plate Staight or as straight as possible

    4)once each unit is Printing in Register to the other units and everything is lined up ok, Check to see if the Image is printing Straight or at a Slant according to the Sheet, if it is Printing at a Slant you need to adjust the Frontlaysto make it straight.

    You should be able to Just move the Plates Very Slightly While making ready but on a Autoplate Machine it should never be so far out of register as the picture

    Hope this info helps
     
  15. Hardware

    Hardware Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2010
    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    Indonesia
    Thank's Rolandman. I will try this.
     
  16. rolandman

    rolandman Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2009
    Messages:
    254
    Location:
    UK
    any luck buddy?
     
  17. Hardware

    Hardware Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2010
    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    Indonesia
    Hi Rolandman, sorry for not reply soon. I try your advise but it's hard to adjusting pin to "nearly straight" for every unit. The problem is, nut for tightening pin register have tyrus head. So if I adjust the pin, when I tightening the nut, it will move again to "near center" of nut.
    For a while, I got technician to check the machine. He set the gripper again for swing arm, impression cylinder and transfer. Now the machine have good register in unit 1, 2, and 3. For register pin he told me that the pin register have hole in pin register and cylinder so by using "tool (it's like pin with 6mm diameter)" he can make same position for each register pin.
    For unit 4 and 5 the register still not good. So now he change the bearing impression cylinder unit 4, 5 and small transfer cylinder unit 4. I hope today the work will done and I can test print again. I will info you soon after test print for the result. Thank's for help
     
  18. Hardware

    Hardware Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2010
    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    Indonesia
    Hi Rolandman, Here the resume of my machine. After try and error for 1 month finally I have to adjust the pin like your advice. The print result is register at the front but not at the back. The print result at the back is like "not the same size" compare to every unit. It's like smaller or bigger compare to other unit. Is it ok to adjust at the clamp plate to make the print result "bigger" or "smaller" ? Or it's mean there is still something wrong with my machine ?
     
  19. rolandman

    rolandman Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2009
    Messages:
    254
    Location:
    UK
    Hello, is the front registering perfect now? if so and the back is printing bigger or smaller you need to adjust your plate packing. if the unit is printing to big you need to take some packing out if it is to smalll you need more packing

    hope this helps, let us no how you get on
     

  20. Hardware

    Hardware Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2010
    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    Indonesia
    Yes Rollandman, the front register is perfect now. I already try add or take some packing from blanket. Is it same result if I change packing thickness from cyl blanket compare to cyl plate ?
    Base on your experience, can I make perfect register at the back for 5 colour or is it impossible to make perfect register at the back ?
     
Loading...