Edge refinement problem? Something else?

Let me start off by saying I am not an iGen operator. I work with our templates in InDesign and review test prints before the templates go online. Our prints have been less than satisfactory, in my opinion, for a while and some complaints are finally surfacing and pushing the print plant to try to fix it. However, they're being very stubborn so I am coming here in hopes to find some possible solutions or some different things I can suggest to them to try.

We've been dealing with stuff like the attached pictures (some look worse in person) ever since we switched from an iGen3 to 4. The Xerox rep has told us there is a problem with the edge refinement option in the software, but the prints look worse with it off. It is the worst with text. We seem to get this halo effect and it makes it look terrible and sometimes it is blurry resulting in hard to read text. On artwork, it can leave spots or lines of, what looks like 100% cyan/magenta, depending on what the prominent color being used is.

Are we just pushing the limits of the machine? It doesn't seem like it should have a hard time printing most of the stuff we output... Would a higher line screen help? I think we're on 175 currently. We asked for a test of different line screens, but the operator said that would take too long to calibrate just to test.

Does anyone have any ideas I can toss his way?

 

What RIP are you using? Creo, Freeflow or Fiery? Most have the impression that if all the boxes are checked ie High quality text/graphics, edge enhancement etc it will produce better results. The opposite is true as they all can conflict with each other and produce poor results

When your op says it takes to long to calibrate to test - read lazy. It is an auto setup with the ILS in the iGen4 and runs 100 sheets to setup. If it was the iGen3 then yes it takes a while

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Mark

 

Like Mark said, I hope they aren't forgoing calibration on the basis that it takes too long, the igen4 calibration is quick and easy.

Here, when we have had troubles with text or detail work like this, we have also tried toggling our trap and anti-aliasing settings (both are in Image Quality under the options tab) sometimes turning trap on or off will fix it, and sometimes turning off the anti-aliasing will help.

On our press, we will get something like your "Two Thousand And" sample, except the color we get haloing all the time is magenta.

 

I believe we use Freeflow.

And yeah, I began reading a bit about the iGen today and found out it really isn't that much of a process due to the CMT...

He has ran different line screens for us before, but the colors were SO far off it was useless as we couldn't compare anything. See below: the top and bottom are supposed to be the same files with different line screens.....



I'm just trying to get someone else's opinion on this that isn't backing the op because it seems like him and the Xerox reps are a little buddy, buddy.

It is just ridiculous I have to look into this as it is no where near my job description.

@Eric
My first thought was trapping settings - this was months ago but they said we don't use trapping (????). Now I just find out today that they told my boss they'd do some tests on the trap settings.

I didn't know about AA settings. I'll toss that onto the fire too.

Yes, our main problems have been with magenta and cyan. Getting white to print on pink is a nightmare along with pink/red text printing on white looks bad.

Thanks to everyone so far.

 

The thing to understand about line screens is that if your press has never run 200 line screen, it takes an entire CMS and DFE profiling course in order to get the color right. Changing between them will result in variance because the press hasn't been calibrated at that line screen. I would stick with whatever you have run most often and attuned your press to via CMS (here we stay at 175). Are you operators certified?

Edit: the reason I ask about operators being certified is that in the certification course, I learned a lot about the CMS and in particular, the above mentioned information about line screens.

 

Yes, we have 3-4 certified operators working off 2 iGens. Really, the only reason line screens came up was because we were getting nothing back in terms of them trying to solve the issues and they had previously stated, "We don't use trapping". All our test prints looked like garbage so of course we send the designs back to the designers to either change fonts, add strokes, enlarge stuff, etc... when possibly a couple of changes in print settings could reproduce what was originally designed just fine.

I understand there will be some variance, but to the extent of what was posted above? I'm pretty sure we've ran 175 ever since whatever printers we had before the iGen3 (before my time here). I just don't understand the stubbornness of trying to fix a problem that customers are complaining about. Maybe line screen isn't the answer, but we don't know until we try, right? Process of elimination. It is just frustrating because I'm a bit of a perfectionist and I just can't wrap my head around someone who accepts mediocrity.

The Xerox rep said we could do these steps so we don't impact production:
- create new color group
- dupe normal calibration stock
- run CMT using new stock and line screen to linearize the engine
- create 200 dot custom profile through FFPS or Match Assure
- apply profile and use for system check

Our op pointed us to this and said it is pretty involved and time is a factor for them.
The rep said they were able to get a score of 10 for 300 line screen on the system check but had a big difference in color between line screens. Is that difference in color as huge as the picture I posted above? I don't know as he is now on vacation until mid Sept. This is also why I am looking for answers else where.

 

10 - 15mins tops to run a CMT and create a new profile. Just to make thing clear Engine/System Check is not calibrating the paper, neither is it calibrating the engine. It is checking that the engine can deliver what is needed of it. ie If it can only produce a max 80% tint in any colour at that point in time it will fail as it will be unable to produce a 100% tint if asked for.

Engine Check, TRC Lin and System check need to be run on the recommended stock (120gsm Gloss here in the UK) to let it get the correct results. It's no use running them on say a cream stock as the readings it is expecting will be off ie magenta will look orange

Engine Check - checks that the engine can supply from 5% to 100% tints. If not a TRC is run to initialize the dots. These change during the run as the engine is constantly adjusting itself and also is changed by the CPUC to eliminate streaks

System Check - Checks that Pantone and RGB colours are printing correctly from the RIP - this is why you need to run it on the correct paper as it is assuming the L* a* b* is what is in it's stock database. If this fails a Dc951 and MOB calibration is performed to set the optimum values for the Xerographics and the process starts again

Profiling does not adjust the engine. It creates a TRC for that particular paper by reading known RGB and Pantone colours and adjusting for the paper L* a* b* colour. ie on a cream stock the TRC will adjust to make Magenta look Magenta instead of orange

From start to finish if the engine is looked after and clean the whole proccess should take no more than 10 -15mins

If you are going to run a different screening you will need to enable the CPUC to read the screens in NVM so it can correct any streaks in that screening. By default only the 175 screening is enabled. This is done to reduce the cycle up and down time of the engine.
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Mark

 

10 - 15mins tops to run a CMT and create a new profile

MarkD,
Would this process also be necessary if you were changing the line screen from system specified (175) to 200 or 300?
I am chasing a problem on an iGen4 regarding fine text not printing clearly. If you use Edge Enhancement it will change the color of the font. With edge enhancement off the color of the font is correct however the text is not very clear.
I have had the same file tested on a new iGen 150 and it looks great. On the iGen4 its not so good at all.
From your experience what may be the best settings on iGen 4 FFPS to get nice clear fine text?

Steve.

 

There is a Xerox analyst that has a better version of edge enhancement that worked for us. We print alot of white text on a pms287 solid background. It was printing magenta on the text but not anymore with the new edge enhancement. Start asking questions to get the better edge enhancement!

 

When did you receive this version? Does the software have a version number or anything I can inquire about?