ink/water ratios on komori

Discussion in 'Komori Printing Presses' started by Bruce, Apr 16, 2008.

  1. Bruce

    Bruce Member

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    :! By the way this forum is a great idea. Just wish more would get involved. Bruce:D:confused:

    I'm running a komori L528. Can anybody explain how the ink/water ratio settings work? I've read the manual on the subject and I have a general idea of what settings are for but how does one know where to set the ratios at? Currently I have my ink ratio at 135, the water at 145. Any suggestions? Thanks
     
  2. Meny

    Meny Senior Member

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    Hello Bruce
    I am a Komori man - talk to me
    +972523201671
     
  3. KOMORI DEMONSTRATOR

    KOMORI DEMONSTRATOR KOMORI DEMONSTRATOR

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  4. KOMORI DEMONSTRATOR

    KOMORI DEMONSTRATOR KOMORI DEMONSTRATOR

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    Bruce I Am Working In Tel Aviv Soon What Press Are You On
     
  5. Bruce

    Bruce Member

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    ink/water ratios

    Paul, Hi Bruce here. I'll be calling you soon. Thanks again.
     
  6. Bruce

    Bruce Member

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    ink/water ratios

    Hello, I'm on a L528 w/coater, 2003.
     
  7. RichardK

    RichardK Senior Member

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    Basically, the faster you print the more damp you need. The idea of ratio is that it compensates for this automatically. At 150% and full speed the damp will be 50% more than it was at the 'turning point' ie the point at which the ratio effect cuts in, usually just after min print speed 3,500iph (this is preset but can be changed via the PQC). You'd need to run at full speed for a while and then begin to drop the ratio til you get catchup then up it slightly til the catchup goes. The damp should then be right at all speeds. Of course you have to do this for all units, since the roller settings may differ. Same thing with the ink ratio - but get the damp ratio done first.
     
  8. KOMORI DEMONSTRATOR

    KOMORI DEMONSTRATOR KOMORI DEMONSTRATOR

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    I would seriously advise anyone not to follow Richards directions i have been both a komori showroom and field demonstrator for over 6 years now and have never worked like this. Richard how using your theory do you calibrate the ink ratios using ??????????????? dose your 28 have KHS????????????:eek:
     
  9. RichardK

    RichardK Senior Member

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    OK let's hear how you'd do it.

    I can only say that, having only had 38 years at the sharp end in print perhaps you're better informed as a demonstrator.

    To my mind you need to set your damp first - then adjust inking.

    I am prepared to be corrected - never too old to learn a better method.
     
  10. KOMORI DEMONSTRATOR

    KOMORI DEMONSTRATOR KOMORI DEMONSTRATOR

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    Richard , There are no settings done on any Komori at 13,000sph or 15,000sph to do with ratios I totaly hear what you are saying that you have 38 yrs exp and i am sure you are a fine printer. I demonstrate new and used Komori presses world wide and if you drop me your details i am more than happy to ring you and talk you through any settings you might be uncertain on Paul@printdemonstrator.co.uk or if you are going to Drupa i will be working there.
     
  11. tofer

    tofer Member

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    Think the previous post was asking you to "put up or..." as they say. You said Richard's advice was bad but didn't actually give your way to do it at all.
     
  12. KOMORI DEMONSTRATOR

    KOMORI DEMONSTRATOR KOMORI DEMONSTRATOR

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    Yes I Did Say If Any One Had Any Problems They Could Ring Me Or I Would Ring Them I Must Admit I Find It Easier To Talk To People Because I Can Ask Specific Questions About What Press They Are On Dose It Have A Scanner , Khs Ect 6 People Have Took Me Up On My Offer If You Think About What He Said How Would That Possibly Work With The Ink Ratios I Don't Have To Defend Myself I Am Here To Help You Don't Have To Take My Advice.
     
  13. RichardK

    RichardK Senior Member

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    The PQC has been around for a good number of years now, the ratios work in the way I described on all of them. The setting of those ratios are indeed dependent on many factors but the bottom line is the faster the press speed the more ink/damp you need to compensate. That's why the %'s don't go negative.

    The method you use to achieve accurate compensation has to be a combination of the ink, damp and press speed. Perhaps I overstated the case for running at full speed - but unless you do run at full speed you'll never know what will happen to the balance and ink density.

    How else could you predict it?

    Having said all that my initial query to KD remains unanswered and I am not so arrogant as to believe I am 100% correct, so I am prepared to be corrected.

    By scanning I assume KD means densitometry at the PQC either integrated or manual - you could theoretically use the densitometer info to detect changes in density relative to speed and adjust accordingly. Fact remains you need to know which to alter, damp or ink. Allowing a little catchup, then increasing damp ratio to clear it is the surest way IMO, to determine the optimum balance, if the ink density is low at that point then you'd alter the ink ratio.

    As for plate scanning or KHS these are pretty much irrelevant for the purposes we're talking about. It's only the initial data for setting ink profiles, and as anyone knows who uses them it is only a starting point.
     
  14. KOMORI DEMONSTRATOR

    KOMORI DEMONSTRATOR KOMORI DEMONSTRATOR

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    Richard is right in what he is saying but you start from 7,500sph and set both at the same time as you gain speed at set times i use 5 points although another demonstrator uses 6 KHS is as Richard said a colour management system linking repro to the press for an accurate MR although if you don't have a scanner its not a management system. although if you do have a scanner its a great help in setting up the ratios as its easy to see on the density what you are loosing BACK TO MY FIRST POINT ALL I SAID DONT TRY TO SET IT AT FULL SPEED IT DOSNT WORK
     
  15. RichardK

    RichardK Senior Member

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    Ok KD, we're getting somewhere now.

    But can you clarify whether you mean 'scanner' as in a CCD array ie image capture, or do you really mean densitometer?
     
  16. metalfabsection

    metalfabsection Senior Member

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    is this true if we use more ink like solid color, so the water ratio should be more or just set the ratio until the catchup gone.....as we all know the water@damp solution is to repeal the non-images are
     
  17. KOMORI DEMONSTRATOR

    KOMORI DEMONSTRATOR KOMORI DEMONSTRATOR

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    Please feel free to email me directly with any specific questions and i will do my best to answer them.
    Kind Regards.
    Paul.:)
    paul@komori-demonstrator.co.uk
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2009
  18. NotAGooner

    NotAGooner Senior Member

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    KD, I don't wan't to get into an argument here but I thought the whole point of this forum is to SHARE knowledge, by you asking people to e-mail you their problems, defeats this concept and in fact makes you look like you're drumming up business via the website

    Sorry if I have the wrong end of the stick

    As to the actual question, I don't know (heidelberg Speedmaster man here) but Richard has proved his value here on many points and has helped me gain some knowledge of a press (Komori) I would like to know more about

    Anyway, all have a nice day :)
     
  19. KOMORI DEMONSTRATOR

    KOMORI DEMONSTRATOR KOMORI DEMONSTRATOR

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    Sorry you feel that way, I have had the pleasure of meeting Richard in fact I have worked on his 626 I think Richard is one of the most knowledgable people I have met in the print game if you look this was started last year and added to yesterday from metalfrabsection in malaysia,asia. I am working out of the uk didnt understand fully there question so said they could email me direct. what Richard said about me.http://www.colorprintingforum.com/komori-printing-press/recommendation-1609.html I must admit i do get a lot of work through the forum from here and abroad but I am only to happy to help anyone and sometimes I find it easier to explain to people over the phone than to write it down.
    Kind Regards.
    Paul.
     

  20. klecman

    klecman Senior Member

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    Normally, the "changeover" from the "L", "M", or "H" water predamp presets are factory set to occur at 5,000 IPH. This is determined by setting th M2-2 value to 38 (%) for for a 13,000 IPH press. 38% of 13,000 works out to roughly 5,000. The maximum impression speed is set in the M1-5 parameter of the console by entering the first three digits of the maximum speed, i.e. 130 for 13,000. To confirm this, watch the water feed graph as the press approaches 5,000 IPH. You should see the value change to your "Set" value.

    On a 15,000 IPH press the M2-2 parameter should be about 33 (%) and the M1-5 set to 150.

    Much the same applies to the ink feed setting and the changeover percentage is entered into the M2-1 parameter. Since there is no similiar function to predamp concerning ink feed, the changeover point is the speed at which the ratio starts to take effect and increase your ink feed as the press speed increases.

    Since I'm not a pressman, I cannot argue the fine points of establishing the proper ratio for ink and water feed, but I have found that most pressmen on this side of the pond use the ratio settings to make fine adjustments at full printing speed and the rest of the curve tends to fall into place so that you are getting good sheets as the press comes up to speed. By "full printing speed" I do not mean the maximum speed of the press but the speed that you, as the pressman, have determined to be appropriate for the current job. This differs little from the method recommended by KD and is more a matter of style and what works for you than a statement of what is correct or incorrect.

    I have been teaching this method for 20 years and have had no complaints but think other readers might gain from a description of other techniques that some may find easier or more effective.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2009
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