printing with RGB profiles

Discussion in 'Color Management' started by photosynthesize, Dec 10, 2008.

  1. photosynthesize

    photosynthesize Member

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    i don't understand why my printer (laserjet) creates better images with an RGB profile than it does with a CMYK one. isn't this illogical? :confused:
     
  2. birdz

    birdz Member

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    RGB images are inherently more vibrant, if your printer has the gamut to reproduce the bright colors - it will.
     
  3. photosynthesize

    photosynthesize Member

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    why would anyone bother converting their images to a CMYK profile if they were likely to get the same or better by using an RGB profile? it's all very confusing to me.
     
  4. birdz

    birdz Member

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    consumer level printers are made to be used by ANYONE, and not many people can tell you the difference between CMYK and RGB. Proper color space and color conversion is only really important when you're doing some high-end and high-quality output through a rip.

    With a decent workflow with preflighting software, you send RGB and it'll be converted automatically.
     
  5. veejay18

    veejay18 Member

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    In RGB profile you can display your image in full color palette, with all subtle differences, shades, tones etc.
     
  6. Jeff

    Jeff Senior Member

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    Mockups or colormatching another device. If you were using the printer at hand to produce mockups of pieces that will be printed on another CMYK device, it would be advantageous to use a CMYK profile that matches what the final device can output. Or if you need to print a piece that will match other existing or future pieces as closely as possible, you might well use a standard profile that is more limited than the maximum color range of your device at hand.
    Also it can be easier to control the printing exactly by converting to CMYK where you can specify areas directly in exact percentages of each actual CMY and K coverage.
     
  7. photosynthesize

    photosynthesize Member

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    we had some colour expert people come in to our studio a while back, and they set up standard profiles for everyone to use - adobe 1998 for RGB, and euroscale v2 for CMYK. we have a laserjet printer with a RIP. but the colours are better when printing with the RGB profile than with the CMYK one. i thought that RGB was about colours comprised from light, and therefore had a much wider gamut than CMYK... how can a printer reproduce colours that are technically meant to be out of its range...? perhaps i'm missing the point somehow.
     
  8. ddigen3

    ddigen3 Senior Member

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    You are correct in your assumption. There are a few points to be explained in that notion. Not really any SIMPLE answer, however, but here's a shot from my understanding:

    Each CMYK color profile has an algorithm to calculate/translate the values from RGB. That in itself is a mouthful. I would suggest talking with one of those color experts to show you a visual demonstration of how that works. I've seen a few. They tickle the brain.

    Depending on the given output device, inks & substrates used, there may be a recommended color profile to use when ripping the file in order to achieve the colors you are looking for.

    However, it seems some of today's rips are accepting RGB, and doing a better job of interpreting their values. This progress is also due to brighter inks and the color engineers out there working hard for us.

    I believe there will ALWAYS be the caveat that what you see on your monitor is rarely ever what you will get when you choose an external output device, such as a printer, copier, web-based printing, etc. Unless you only work with an in-house, color calibrated device & monitor, you should expect change.

    As the previous posters mentioned, converting to CMYK is the "safe" bet when a file has to visit a different house of production.
     
  9. photosynthesize

    photosynthesize Member

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    wow, ok.. so do you think as printing technology improves, there'll be less difference in the translation from screen to page? though obviously a page isn't backlit. do you think perhaps we just happen to have a good printer, and that's why it prints better?
     
  10. ddigen3

    ddigen3 Senior Member

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    I'm no expert, just to clarify. But what I seem to be witnessing with the improvement of technology is not necessarily less difference, but more diversity. Its complicated.

    There are so many monitor manufacturers, so many desktop printer manufacturers, hi-end inkjet printer manufacturers.... and on and on. To assume they'll find a standard for them to all abide by (and therefore create color uniformity) would be short sighted. Mainly because it would remove the competitive edge of one device over the other: Vivid Color, Brilliant Color, etc. It would flat-line the market.

    As for your second question, it sounds like you've simply found a device that produces an output you call "good". You've been given good instruction on how to use it, told the recommended profiles to use, and have stumbled upon its ability to print "better" in RGB.

    All in all, you just need to shop around and find what pleases you, your brand image, or your end customer. Is it accurate color you're looking for, or pleasing color? That's one we ask nearly everyone. There's a significant difference between the two.

    -Solomon
     
  11. photosynthesize

    photosynthesize Member

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    this is all very interesting. thanks for taking the time to help me understand. i'm still not completely clear on how these things work but things are definitely straighter in my mind.:eek:
     
  12. epignosis567

    epignosis567 Member

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    hi. hopefully i can revive this. i have some fine art that i want to print. i want to do some postcard reproductions. the cmyk process is wholly unable to render the colors from what i see in photoshop even with making adjustments. can anyone recommend options to me? is there a way to reproduce fine art in rgb? how is it done on commercial reproductions of fine art?? i don't think i understand. any help would be appreciated. thanks.
     
  13. ddigen3

    ddigen3 Senior Member

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    Hi epignosis567,

    Welcome to the forum! Can you give us more info? You mentioned Photoshop. Are you printing from Photoshop, or just doing edits there and printing from a different program? What are you printing to (inkjet, laser, digital, offset)?

    Thanks.
    -Solomon
     
  14. epignosis567

    epignosis567 Member

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    no, i'm not printing from photoshop. i'll explain the situation. i have some water colors with very vibrant, rich colors. not just the tone of the colors but the hues, they are very rich, bright pigments. i am looking to scan them, which i have done, and send them off to vistaprint to print postcards, i am selling them in stores. but the conversion process from the scanned image to the required rgb mode completely destroys the color. i know some people say there's not much difference but those people are crazy. i have never seen an image converted that wasn't dramatically changed. i can post examples if you/d like. so i guess i need to know what to do about it. can i print in cmyk? is there another process i have to ask for from the printer? i'm using vistaprint because they are really cheap, would i not have this problem if i used a different printer?
    i probably have more questions after these, i'm interested in how to go about getting reproductions done cheaply.
    thanks again!
     
  15. archipelago

    archipelago Senior Member

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    I don't quite follow you here. What color space are they scanned in? 16-bit RGB or adobe RGB? Or ??? And do I read correctly that vistaprint is asking you to submit your files in sRGB? I expected that like most other commodity gang-run printers they would request files already converted by the customer to CMYK mode (which actually has an even smaller gamut than RGB)

    edit: http://www.vistaprint.com/vp/images/nns/upload_path/printing_tips.pdf on page 4 says they want files in standard CMYK U.S. Web Coated
    (SWOP) v2 format.
     
  16. VR4Jen

    VR4Jen New Member

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    I need to bump this thread also (found it in a google search)

    I have also always been perplexed/frustrated with the CMYK vs RGB print results... using my digital canon printers, they ALWAYS look better printed RGB. Always.

    I just printed out a file in both modes and the change was so drastic, it motivated me to try to google this again. The CMYK printout literally looks like the opacity was scaled back to 90%... not only are the colors completely dull, but the black is grey. I mean, you should at least be able to print a deep black in CMYK, no?

    I need to send these files to an offset printer eventually... and although my digital printer produces beautiful RGB printouts, would theirs be able to do the same?

    What I'm asking is, if I were to send an offset printer a nice saturated RGB file, and also the dull, converted CMYK file with it, would they both produce identical results (since the RGB will need to be converted anyway)? Or would there even be a slight improvement with the RGB file?

    Thanks in advance...
     
  17. epignosis567

    epignosis567 Member

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    i apologize for not responding. i have been very busy but the deadline is now this weekend. i am going to post examples of what i mean in a minute.
     
  18. epignosis567

    epignosis567 Member

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    ok, here's a link to some examples. i posted 2 pictures, each in rgb and then cmyk. if you can't tell the difference don't bother responding. because i can and it bothers me very much. if you have any opinions though i am open to suggestions on how to fix it and why it happens.

    link:
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/52972234@N06/sets/72157624587510461/

    that should link to all four pics.

    thanks in advance!
     
  19. epignosis567

    epignosis567 Member

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    no one around?
     

  20. archipelago

    archipelago Senior Member

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    What color space are you scanning them as? I assume you are scanning as RGB. 24-bit or 48-bit? sRGB or adobe RGB or what?

    Vistaprint is really geared for office people printing things where color isnt' super critical; I'm surprised they're requiring rgb vs. cmyk, but maybe this is to gear it to their typical customers who don't want to handle their own conversion (???). What is their "required rgb mode?" - simply srgb or some other requirement? Is there a link to this requirement?

    The image you posted to flickr labled "cmyk" opens in my photoshop here as rgb, so that really confuses things for me. Possibly flickr is converting that back to rgb to be "helpful." But it means we're not seeing the cmyk version that you have on your computer there.

    Typically I'd expect to lose some intensity of the green and purple as you go from rgb to cmyk. To a lesser extent, if you're going from srgb to argb you'll get some change in the green color gamut, etc. (http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/sRGB-AdobeRGB1998.htm) but there's also a shift in your yellows/tans that is more than what I get. What are your photoshop color settings if that's where you're doing the conversion (or what program are you using to do the conversion?) I've honestly not done a lot of conversion from cmyk to rgb as I scan everything in rgb, digital cameras are rgb, etc...
     

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