water trouble

After breaking and replacing a water ductor eccentric, I could never resotre the machine to how it was.

I adjusted the form rollers to 2.5 and 3.5mm, no bouncing anymore. But I get scumming on the side of the leading edge of the plate which soon extends elsewhere, although I get very weak colors, so emulsification and scumming at the same time.

I adjusted the plate to blanket pressure and planket to impression cylinder pressure.

I suspect it is the dampening system that is playing games with me.

I adjusted the ductor roller eccentrics and tried to time ductor to fountain roller dwell to occur at the cylinder gap of the plate cylinder.Does this matter with a continuous flow dampening system that is standard on the abdick 8810.

Any Ideas Please ..

 

Chemistry, I run 4oz alcohol 4oz fountain solution 20 oz of water and I have no problems. These presses are super touchy when it comes to ink/water ratio. For instance I need to pump my water up as the day goes on or it will do leading edge toning. Clean your water rollers up really good especially the chrome roller(8810 even have a chrome water roller I don't think they do). Also try a new blanket a had my ryobi 3200 MCD that printed emulsified and it ended up being a bad blanket

 

I had my blanket for a while now. I'll install a new one. Are there any adjustments or things to look for regarding the dampening system, as you said these machines are touchy in that area..

 

gtech, ziggy is correct on the chemistry. I had the same problem and i mixed as ziggy had mentioned and it took care of it. I wasn't mixing enough fountain solution and no alcholol. Now it doesn't tone at all.

 

8810 does not have a continuous damping system it still utilizes a ductor roller. If it is a chrome ductor roller it is an alcohol system. Depending on temperature and humidity 8 ounces of 99% anhydrous isopropyl alcohol per quart. Below 4 ounces not recommended, nor more than 10 ozs. Fountain solution, Universal 1/2 ounce with distilled water, or 1 ounce with hard tap water. If using a diluted silver master or mega master fountain concentrate use 3.5 - 4 ounces of solution per quart. The timing of the ductor roller making contact to the water oscillator and the gap of the cylinder is not adjusted with the eccentrics. Adjust eccentrics to make full contact at maximum water and no contact at 0 with form contacting plate with conrol lever in the ink position.

 

The machine has an integrated water system with a rubber ductor roller. The is a cam that controls a lever which in turn rotates the sharft on which the eccentrics are attached I wasn't able to dismantle it, however I brought the handle that you use to contol water out and adjusted the eccentic shaft manualy.
I have'nt been using alchohol so far, What is the composition of isopropyl as we don't have alcohol substitutes available locally, what other kinds of alcohol I could use.

 

The rubber ductor and copper fountain roller use NO alcohol. With distilled water use 1/2 ounce of PRO 3, 1 ounce with hard water per quart. Locate the gear and cam assembly on each side of the plate cylinder. There is a hole on the gear and cam, rotate the cylinder till the hole in the gear and the lead edge of the plate cylinder line up with the holes, to adjust remove the E-Clip from the op side of the gears' shaft to slide the gear off of the cylinders' drive gear located on each end of the cylinder to adjust. Be sure that the oscillators change direction when the form rollers are at the cylinder gap, thats a different adjustment. There is a line on the black gear of the eccentric shaft that connects to adjusting gear and lever, the lines should be lined up and the eccentrics adjusted as previously posted. Oil base inks do not run well with this water system, Rubber base or acrylic only!

 

Questions, what type of plates are you running? Metal or poly? If your running metal I would suggest trying "prisco 2451 plus 2" fountain etch if you can get it in your part of the world. Also what type of ink are you running?
FSA

 

I mostly work with metal plates and using poly plates for very short runs of single color jobs, I've a fountain etch for poly plates, for metals I use fountain solution that we use for large offset with conventional dampening, during wenter months everything went smoothly, adjusting the rollers and water system was easy.

I'm surprised that ghuerth is not advising to add a little bit of alcohol when everybody advises to do so, I know it is not an alcohol dampening system but its said that adding a bit of alcohol helps.

I intend to use iced water together wit a bit of alcohol what do you suggest ..

 

Conventional dampening systems I would use a little alcohol to make the water wetter, but on an integrated system with a copper fountain roller alcohol generally breaks the pigment down in the ink and causes tinting.

 

Thanks ghuerth
Man. How to remove the E-Clip from the non op side of the plate cylinder. How to even see it. I looks that I will have to desmantle some other parts to be able to reach down there. I also couldn't locate the black gears of the eccentric shaft that connects to adjusting gear and lever so that I could line them up.
In my part of the world we don't have a variety of fountain solutions is it determined by the type of water system or the kind of metal plate etc. Actually some years ago when abdicks where common localy they used to run them with tap water and no additions can you believe it..
ps. need your reply urgenly before I messup anymore with the machine

 

Managed to remove the e clips and adjust the cams. Still could not locate the black gears you mentioned..

 

The gear and cam on each side of the master cylinder have a hole on the side, this is the timing mark. Line them both up with the headclamp edge, only the operator side clip has to be removed, rotate press till the non-op side lines up with the headclamp edge, then adjust op-side to match, replace clip. The black gear is attached to the lever that adjust how much water to deliver by sliding the lever to more or less dampening solution. There is a timing mark on the black gear located on the end of the eccentric shaft and a mark on the segment gear.

 

Thanks ghuerth. I've done the adjustment and getting much better results, But now I get scumming right at the middle of the plate (which contains no image) and the water on the water pan gets contaminated with ink right from the beginning with little ink on the rollers.

How to adjust the top oscillator to change direction when the forms are at the cylinder gap, knowing that the retaining ring of the top oscillator gets pushed aside to the second slot of the oscillator shaft further towards the operator side restarining the movement of the oscillator

I'm trying to completely setup the water system, to prevent these (reoccuring) problems, are there anyother settings that I need to know about regarding the water system.

 

If the retaining ring keeps sliding off, replace the retaing ring and shaft on the waver roller. The groove on the shaft is probably worn and not holding the retainer. The oscillators (main and water oscillator (waver roller)) change directions at the same time. Changing this is more complicated requiring the removal of taper pins and removing gears to reset timing. So check that the oscillators change direction when the forms are at the gap of the cylinder. They just don't slip out of position, it has to be dismanteled to change. For scumming down the middle check form roller pressures.

 

Thanks man, getting acceptable results now and starting to print. what is it with eccentrics adjustment for the water waver roller. still can't fully undestand this mechanism, I just keep messing with the eccentric on the side that is causing scumming.

 

Your Welcome, adjust the eccentrics so that when the ductor is at its nearest to the oscillating roller that it does not make contact with the roller with the lever at 0 ( full left ). With the lever at maximum ( full right ) the ductor and oscillating roller should make constant contact. Make these adjustments with clean rollers so as not to make a mess on the chrome ductor. The water setting should be between 5 and 15 on the scale. The driving mechanism of the waver roller on the non-op side, ( a square block that slides side to side with a pin that goes into the shaft of the oscillating waver roller ) probably is worn and has play in it so, depending on what part of the cycle its at distributes more water at times and less at other times. You have to find a happy medium or replace the coupling (73011) and guide (84413), there may also be wear in the oscillator shaft and bushing causing the roller to move back and forth affecting the contact between the two rollers. I have stickers that replace the adjusting scale guide for the water dwell for free but I don't know what the cost would be to send it to Egypt. Send me a private message with address and cost, it will fit in an envelope.

 

To days all printing machine are using 1 main water tank.so if problem is coming in 1 printing unit and other are ok so its mean water is ok. problem is in just than unit.
so problem may be coz of wrong adjustment of water rollers and inkform rollers.

 

you can simply scan the stickers with a flat bed scanner (noting any of the dimensions to check for original scale) and send them to my email:graphtech2007@yahoo.com I'll then make a printout on sticker papper.

 

how to find a happy medium. The results that I got from the machine so far the upper side of the printed sheet is faint and the lower is more saturated. I remmeber that there is play on the shaft (73012) the play is vertical (up and down).