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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    chicago
    Posts
    1

    Carbonless Paper..Newbie...Help!!

    Hello,

    I'm new to this business and I have a queastion about some paper...I need to find a good supplier for carbonless paper...I found a supplier where I buy a box that has 10 reams in it which would make me 2500 sets of 2 part carbonless forms.

    Problem is the price for the box is $110....in the area where I'm located I got prices from other print shops...so I followed along their prices but went a little bit cheapier.....Now even when following the full price it's still not good enough to make a good profit.....

    There must be a better way to buy the carbonless paper or a better vendor...

    I was thinking maybe each carbonless paper is sold sepreatly then put together later on, but I'm not sure..Can someone please help me out on this.

    Thank you

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Derby, UK
    Posts
    684

    You can get reverse pre-collated carbonless, but it's more expensive than the separate reams. The upside is that you don't have to collate, but you must maintain a continuous feed otherwise you could lose a set with each misfeed.

    Carbonless has never been cheap - but as usual the more you buy the better rate you get. If you're just getting into the market it may be difficult to compete due to this factor.

    Also note that each brand of carbonless usually is chemically 'keyed' to its own brand of self-separating adhesive.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Elgin, IL 60120
    Posts
    24

    Quote Originally Posted by mtechmedia View Post
    Hello,

    I'm new to this business and I have a queastion about some paper...I need to find a good supplier for carbonless paper...I found a supplier where I buy a box that has 10 reams in it which would make me 2500 sets of 2 part carbonless forms.

    Problem is the price for the box is $110....in the area where I'm located I got prices from other print shops...so I followed along their prices but went a little bit cheapier.....Now even when following the full price it's still not good enough to make a good profit.....

    There must be a better way to buy the carbonless paper or a better vendor...

    I was thinking maybe each carbonless paper is sold sepreatly then put together later on, but I'm not sure..Can someone please help me out on this.

    Thank you
    For carbonless paper I use Guy's E. Paper LLC. http://guysepaper.com/

    David C. Lopez

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    USA Mtn. Time.
    Posts
    54

    Check around with all the paper suppliers. Carbonless pricing is all over the place. Right now we buy 2 part reverse, 8.5x11 for $16.50/m. I have been quoted anywhere from $18.95 - $ 24.50/m. As was mentioned earlier price also depends on how much you use, but be aware, it's a buyers market right now, so you hav e more leverage than ever before. Work those salesman, you'll be suprised how much your price will change for the better. Good Luck

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Huntley, IL 60142
    Posts
    2

    I completely disagree. You are basically suggesting that printers base their decisions on the pricing of a sheet and not the quality and reliability of the sheet. There is only foreign garbarge being shipped into the US at the price levels you claim to pay (with the exception of large volumes that you pick up yourself)- nobody is selling at those levels on quality sheets with free shipping and next day delivery. And to suggest buying on price would mean that no care is given to the fact that you may save $20 on a paper cost, but spend hundreds of dollars in wasted time, stock, labor hours, supplies when dealing with not-so-quality sheets (why save $20 just to spend $100? wouldn't you rather spend $20 to save $100???) Each impression a printer makes, regardless of the job being printed, is a testament to that printers reputation. If you are trying to run a successful business, are you sure you want people to remember you as the printer who had the cheapest prices and the lowest quality. I am a consumer and I will gladly pay 200% more for something to know it was done the way I want and is a product I can rely on. A cheap price doesn't necessarily equate to the best and truest cost. Add to the fact that many printers are currently relying on "cheap" pricing to buy foreign paper/products that is a contributing factor to a failing US economy. You cannot point fingers at an economy that is not being fully supported by the finger-pointers. "working the salesman" doesn't seem like a fair statement, becuase after all, if the product and level of service hasn't changed- why sould your pricing. Unless you were being over-charged in the first place and the price adjustments are a way to keep your business after getting their hand "caught in the cookie jar." I think the suggstion should be:

    1. Find a reliable supplier
    2. Find the highest available quality to market (regarding capacity utilization, capsulation, fiber quality, imaging quality, etc.)
    3. Find a supplier of the highest quality products and develop a relationship that will last that is based on getting the job done right and at the best Cost (not the best price).
    4. Create opportunites, don't think that because you have an open sign on your door that people will magically show up. Create the catalyst (and selling on price is a good way to erode your own profitability while training your clients to rely on a price of service and not the level and quality of service- which lowers your return ratios). How have you set yourself apart from everyone else that offers the same services?
    5. Lastly, take a holistic approach to your business- The whole is only as good as the sum of it's parts (as in "the chain is only as strong as it's weakest link). Think about it...

    I think we should be "working" our own businesses, since they are essentially our life blood and our means to an end. As a salesman and businessman myself, I can certainly understand from a printer's point of view for quite a few reasons. I grew up in a printer's family (my father printed for over 20 years with RR Donnelly in Chicago) and I actually care about the clients I service. My advice and suggestions are unbiased and directed towards the betterment of my clients business. I'd rather lose your business today to keep it for 100 years than to keep it today and lose it for eternity. There is more money in it for everyone over the long-term. So if someone buys from me or doesn't, it will not derail my committment to providing a product and service NOBODY else can match (it sets me apart from every other person that does what I do). It's not me against them, it's "how can I get to know my clients business and it's niches so I can tailor a service that accomodates and supports their individual business at higher levels!" I provide the highest quality carbonless sheets available to the market, that run faster (80-90% capacity utilization versus the average 65% with other brands), has 30-40% more capsules for bolder/cleaner/faster imaging no matter how many sheets, and our true cost is the best in the business. The intial cost of the sheets tend to be lower because we are the manufacturer (yes, you can buy by the ream and by the case with no small order charges, no minimums, and no penalties- and if you can make it a full case with whatever size and carbonless product I'll ship it to you for free in a double box to guarantee no damage). Our paper quality is the highest, has the most efficient run-ability, virtually eliminates waste/spoilage/press malfunctions due to paper, and our ability to get it done right the first time-every time.. means your overall costs will be exponentially lower.

    These are things that I think will assist in building a solid foundation for the serious printing company. Not finding the person who will drop their pants the fastest.

    God Bless America!

    Respectfully,

    "The Marine"

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    USA Mtn. Time.
    Posts
    54

    I understand your point, but, I have been running NCR and Imation(3m) for over 25 years and never once have I had a problem with quality, setup or lost time because of a poor quality sheet. We run them through our Ryobi 3200, Heidelberg GTO, and Heidelberg QMDI and they always run great. I stand by my statement, beat these guys up on price, most of the sheets, as listed above, and Im sure Guys included although weve never ran it, runs great on most presses. Dont let them try to scare you into thinking they dont. Hey there a business and they want your money. I say support local US companies whenever possible, but, the name of the game is profit and you have to make a little or your out of business, so be smart in your purchases, talk to other printers outside your area and I believe you'll find most carbonless runs great. I appreciate the comments by "The Marine", alternate viewpoints are always great and needed to make a rational decision.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Huntley, IL 60142
    Posts
    2

    yes, for a profit- but at what cost?

    Then I believe we will have to agree to disagree, because paper is not paper. The NCR you ran 25 years ago is definitely not the same NCR you are running today. The Imation you run today is also not the same today. Different companies handle those sheets and every mill will have different pulp and fiber sources. Fibers will play a crucial role in performance, along with capsulation and the processes to apply capsules including the chemicals to bond those capsules, and many other items do play an important role in the quality, run-ability, and imaging of paper. Heck, the Brands you use are different today than they were 5-10 years ago. Not to mention that, without mentioning which one, one of the popular brands you mentioned doesn't even make their bond sheets anymore- they are coating base stock from different sources. You cannot achieve optimum consistency if different stocks are used, and if you are operating with inconsistent paper as a printer- what was the point of trying to save money when you are spending more than saving with the issues that do arise. Regardless of what anyone says, I talk to over 100 printers per day and paper is not paper. And the printer thinks that the consumer spending their money on the services of that printer won't notice, is gravely mistaken.

    That's like saying gas is gas. If that statement is true, why won't a Mercedes handle regular unleaded. And being that your presses tend to run in the price ranges of 50-100K or more- you really want to be running just any kind of paper through your high-end equipment? And then say to the clients paying you for the best quality and service- "paper is paper."

    Nothing is the same- in any aspect of life. So price is never indicative of true cost, and quality is not a shared aspect of any paper available. If that were the case, wouldn't snowflakes all be the same- i mean it's just water and snow right?

    But I agree, the goal is to make a profit. But if the profit is to be made so the printer can survive, and there is no long-term goal/plan, what was the point. Because a consumer is more likely to tell 10 people about bad services, products, etc. and only 1 or 2 people about a good experience. That is not constructive to running any type of business. And the common business truth is that you WILL make more money off 1 client over 20 years, than you will off 20 clients in 1 month month. And it is far less expensive to keep a client than it is to bring in a new one, by statistics (it's also easier to sell "value added" services or add-ons to current clients). So because you have a price, does not indicate you operating at the best cost. Than what happens when the economy picks back up, you will have eroded your profitability by so much that you won't be able to justify raising your prices because "the economy is much better." Why should I raise or decrease my pricing- my products have only gotten better, faster, and higher quality. Certainly my services continually are improved and adjusted to better assist the clients that rely on me to get it done right, get it done now, and make sure there is no hindrances. The economy is an excuse to hold onto to justify why things aren't good. People out there creating the opportunities are booming and print companies are being added to the mix by a count of around 2,000 new companies per month. So if many companies are booming, and a decent rate of new companies are opening- it can't be the economy or just the economy. There is more to it- but looking for the cheapest stock and cheapest prices is definitely not the answers.

    However yes, the goal is to make and/or achieve profitability. But at what cost? At the cost of the reputation a company is trying hard to build, or the client base/market share it is trying to capture?

    But I could be wrong. This is my ideology based on the 10 years I have operated my business dealings, combined with the 100 printers I talk to daily and the tens of thousands of clients we service as a company nationwide.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    south wales uk
    Posts
    376

    you followed others prices, then went abit cheaper.
    This is what is wrecking our industry, ive lost 3 jobs in 4 days because someone else is cheaper, My answer "go there then" your really not helping any of us or even yourself friend. I know your in the us but people here in the uk do it and its really wrecking businesses

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Stockbridge, Georgia, USA
    Posts
    28

    About pricing...

    A new printer came to my town and tore me up with his cheaper prices. He quoted a trade job for me and I asked, "How can you produce that job for that price?" His reply, "You can't compete with me." A few years later his company went bankrupt, oweing the same paper company I use, about $35,000...

    IMHO...If you cater to "lowest price seeking" customers, eventually, they will ruin your business. Some folks are willing to pay a fair price for quality and service...

    My favorite quote from a shrewd business associate: "I'd rather be at home watching TV and not making any money, than to be working and not making any money."

    One more thing to think about, a lot of the "lowest price seeking" customers are the ones that will look the hardest for a reason to get out of paying for or get a discount on a printing job.
    Last edited by Printer Mike; 06-04-2009 at 03:14 AM. Reason: Added something.

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  11. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    south wales uk
    Posts
    376

    In the end mate all these people will go bust and leave us to it

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